Nichole June Maher, Aleesha Towns-Bain and Kevin Walker

Aleesha

I think that's my cue, right everybody to do my intro. Before I get started, I am noticing in myself that I feel a little nervous, probably because this feels so official and I am on a unfamiliar platform. But I know that I'm actually just here to have a conversation with my friends, Kevin and Nichole and it's all going to be fine. So I'm going to take a deep breath, and let that go and get a little centered. Get my head in the game of being a board chair at one time.

Nancy (Host)

From the Giving Practice at Philanthropy Northwest, this is Can We Talk About...? a project to normalize the messiness of leading for racial equity in philanthropy and reflect on what it takes to create lasting transformation. In our pilot season, leaders across philanthropy reflect with one another on their experiences working to advance racial equity at the governance level. We're asking leaders to explore sticky topics, look for learning, practice vulnerability and give themselves and each other permission to speak in first draft. And what we ask of you is to do the same. Here to kick off our season, we're joined by leaders from our very own Philanthropy Northwest family, including our current board chair Nichole June Maher, and Philanthropy Northwest's past two board chairs, Alicia Towns-Bain and Kevin Walker. Here they are introducing themselves.

Nichole

My name is Nichole June Maher and I serve as the president and CEO of the Inatai Foundation that serves Washington State. I also have the pleasure of serving as the current board chair for Philanthropy Northwest, and I use she and her pronouns. I live in Kitsap County, Washington, with my mom and my husband and my three kids.

Aleesha

My name is Aleesha Towns-Bain. I'm executive director of the Bristol Bay Foundation, and the immediate past chair of the Philanthropy Northwest board. I identify as she/her pronouns and thanks for allowing me to be here today.

Kevin

Hi, my name is Kevin Walker. I am the president and CEO of the Northwest Area Foundation. I served on the Philanthropy Northwest board for 10 years, including chairing the board immediately before Aleesha Towns-Bain. I use he/him pronouns and I live in St. Paul, Minnesota, with my wife who is a teacher, and we have two grown sons,

Nancy (Host)

Nichole, Aleesha and Kevin, give us an inside look at 13 years of the Philanthropy Northwest board's racial equity journey, the tough conversations, joy, personal challenges and moments of growth. Together, they cover a lot of ground, celebrating how far the board has come while exploring what's to come ahead. All right, without further ado, let's dive in.

Nichole

Well, I'm so excited to be here with both of you and give ourselves a chance to really reflect and be in conversation about the journey we have been on together as board members at Philanthropy Northwest. The point today is to really just spend time connecting and reflecting candidly, on the over a decade journey we have been on as an organization and as a board to have a stated and clear commitment to racial equity and philanthropy. And for this conversation, I know we're really excited to actually focus on the board experience in our board experience. The goals of today are really about sharing, and creating space for group reflection, exchanging stories about what has worked well, where it has been difficult, where there's been joy, and how we have supported one another, as we have navigated the complexities of centering racial equity, in the long term, and in the short term, we are doing this in a public platform, and we are inviting ourselves to be candid and transparent and have a genuine conversation, even though sometimes that can feel scary. So I'm wondering in the name of transparency, if you could share a little bit about what's on your mind as we embark into this vulnerability and open the conversation together and also to see if there's any norms or commitments that we want to make together as we start this conversation now.

Aleesha

You know, just in terms of what I would hope that we can establish in a conversation and what I would wish for, for anyone who is participating in a PNW podcast in the future is that we can be our full and authentic selves on in this format, and being who we are as human beings and every aspect, not just our board chair or in a specific role that we played with Philanthropy Northwest, but who we are as people. Because I think that we live all those things when we are volunteering in these leadership roles and so that's my, that's my ask is full authentic selves. And, you know, I think we've done wonderful at that at Philanthropy Northwest and I'd love to see that replicated here.

Kevin

That's a great way to think of it, Aleesha and I would just add to that, that I hope we can find and draw the connections between the various roles we all play. In other words, it's a conversation about the Philanthropy Northwest board. But we all have served on that board because of leadership roles in other organizations. We've served on other boards and these issues that we'll be talking about, cut across all of those different aspects of our lives as well as our personal lives. So I'm going to be trying just to connect those dots and not get too siloed into only talking about the PNW boardroom, although that is the heart of the conversation.

Nichole

I would just ask that we try to straddle being truth tellers, and actually talking about the hard parts and the challenges and the moments of discomfort. I hope that will I think that will be most meaningful for our listeners who are likely in similar boats to all of us. And at the same time, if we can assume best intent along the way, like if we can be giving and generous in our challenges, but also know that like, we're all humans and making mistakes on this journey together, I would love to invite us into that that space. Well, thank you too, for that guidance. And I also want to say to all the guests and listeners, thank you for joining us. And with that, I will hand it over to you, Aleesha to kick us off.

Aleesha

I think my job is to warm us into this conversation because it is remarkable that we are gathered together in this virtual space. Because the three of us, Kevin, myself and Nichole represent 13 years of Philanthropy Northwest's board journey. And there's been some pretty key evolutions, the moments in time that have happened, both when the board was gathered, and throughout the year, during that period, and I think the invitation that we have now is to reflect a little bit on what we what we remember about this time. And what some of the earliest, maybe early, mid and most recent moments were, maybe I might pass it over to Kevin, because you were here, you're amongst the first I think you've shared in the opening that you served 10 years. What were some early early recollections that you have?

Kevin

It is a long time ago, it was 2010. When I stepped onto the board, I remember right away the warmth of the welcome. It was and always was while I was there and as I think continued to be from what I hear from from you too a place where we're the people in the room really care about one another and there's a warmth and an embrace when you step into that board that was palpable and was was really special right from the beginning. And an openness to like doing things that got us into the beauty of the Northwest, you know, not just having meetings in hotel meeting rooms, but getting out to places that reminded us this is a regional association, you know, and having conversations around a firepit not just sitting in a room with fluorescent lighting and those kind of things created a certain atmosphere of just warmth and connection. The board was not especially diverse when I stepped onto it as yet another white man. It wasn't all white men by any means, but it was, I would say maybe maybe 25% board members of color, something like that and I look back on that now and I'm struck by that, because it feels insufficiently diverse. And yet I don't remember understanding that at the time. But board members of color who were in on the board, were influential, and we're, you know, like important voices. It's not that that they were marginalized or anything but it definitely I would say that the board as I first experienced, it had that characteristic of maybe inadvertently kind of centering, as the normal board member and board experience somebody who looked like me. And you know, when you've been swimming in that water your whole life as I have, you actually have to learn that you're in water, as opposed to like, this is just it, right? So that manifested as a classic thing for boards, there's, there's often in boards a culture of politeness and of kindness to one another, that leads to certain conversations feeling like they should probably be avoided. And so the way I've looked at that now is discomfort is being felt in that room. But not by people who look like me, the discomfort is being disproportionately felt by more by board members of color, in particular, who have this sense of like, there seems to be a kind of a silence at the middle of this that isn't supposed to be broken. So all of this is really subtle stuff. I'm offering it within the context of a board that, like I said, felt very warm and functional. But that was the norm. So when topics around racial equity, or related things would come up, there was it wasn't the most natural thing for the board to even have those conversations. That's, that's my general recollection of what 2010 felt like.

Nichole

I cannot remember the year that I joined the board, true confessions, but I can remember that I was recruited by Kevin Walker to join the board. And had it not been for the phone call and the convincing and the friendship and relationship that you and I already had, Kevin, I don't know that I would have seen the board is like the right place for me. I had certainly been to many of Philanthropy Northwest conference as, at the time the CEO of Northwest Health Foundation, but also I went as a speaker a number of times when I was the executive director of the Native American Youth and Family Center. So I thought I had kind of like an idea of what it was. But it was frankly, like my friendship with you, Kevin, and your convincing skills that made me think like, oh, there might be an opportunity. Interestingly enough, my two board members I joined with were Aleesha and CC. And so you know, when you want, like, those are two great, like partners in crime to join a board with and so when I joined, it also was not a particularly diverse, I think we might have been a class that helped increase those numbers but I remember a couple of things that were really important to me. I have been on a lot of boards that are not diverse, but I have not been on very many boards where there are multiple Native people, let alone native women. And so like the impact of being on the board with Alicia, Susan Anderson and La quen náay like was really that was really meaningful for me and those are like, just to be like, wait, this is a board in progress but of course, in the Pacific Northwest, there should be these multiple badass native women like that should just be the way it makes the most sense for strategy and vision. And that was exactly like what I experienced with those three ladies. And so that was really special and then the other memory I have early on, is between the time I said yes, I will join and my first board meeting, we had an executive director transition. And so my second board meeting might I don't know if it was my first or my second, honestly but if the two of you and all listeners can, like just cultivate the memory of going to your first and second board meeting when you don't really know anyone and the nerves. And then I was at that meeting, and we were actually in the part where we were already interviewing candidates and I very shakily raised my hand after a set of interviews with finalists and said, several of these folks have said that like racial equity and diversity is like not their thing. Like they've said, like I want to learn about it. It's super important, but that's not really my thing. But when I read your values, we're saying that's our thing. Can this be our thing, if the candidates we're most attracted to have like, all these other great, amazing skills, but like that's not their specialty. And I was like, I'm about to get kicked off this board and that was but like I was just like, why can I be nice for at least three meetings? Like, why am I causing problems meeting one meeting two. But I experienced actually, folks were like, they stopped the process, actually. And I won't give my it's not because of me, but it was like, the process actually stopped. And candidates who did have that commitment to racial equity, I believe stayed in and I think we slowed down and almost like, had a restart in some ways. And there was real debate, like, I felt like Aleesha, Kevin, you can correct me or enhance my memory. But I felt like there were some folks who were like, really deeply agree that that was important. There were some folks who were like, no, these people are good. We, the person can learn about racial equity later. And I remember that being like my first really uncomfortable moment, but also feeling like we ended up going in a good way and that folks were really open. And it just made me feel really encouraged. What are some of your early memories, Aleesha,

Aleesha

That was so great to hear your memories, because we did come on at the exact same moment. And like, oh, yes, I do remember that. And to put a finer point on it, I believe this is the only board where I've been on that has three women who are Tlingit, which is also amazing. So yes, into your point, more Alaska Native, Native American women on every board, and also these three were incredible. And that was also critical for me, particularly as I was coming in. I had been around Philanthropy Northwest, like you had been to conferences, I had been active in our Alaska Funders Group, but even when that's the case, this felt like a very big room for me, like big in the sense that I don't know if I'm good enough, important enough, all those things, kind of that imposter syndrome, that anybody can feel it of walking into a big professional room for the first time. And I definitely remember feeling those things. And it was, to your point La quen náay, Susan Medicine Crow that really took me by the arm, and reinforced that, you know, I was in the right space. And not only that, that my voice at that time, in our history as an organization was going to be critical, and that I had a responsibility to use it. And then they demonstrated I think time and time again how how to use it in a really constructive way to further this path that they were already on. And you know, when we signed up to do this podcast and have this conversation, the thing that I thought to myself was, it's great that the three of us are going to be there. But really, I wanted to have all of those people that have been on us or on this journey with us, or were there before us, right and thinking about this, these issues and, you know, pushing them forward. And sometimes not gently, you know, with very strong, intentional, purposeful hands to get its to this place. And so I just recognize, yeah, that energy that we were, you know, in some respects, I feel like I tapped to, to help fulfill that role and take up my responsibility to walk it forward in the way that I could. So thank you for those memories. And I also remember, to your point that those early, it was deeply uncomfortable. I think it's uncomfortable to come in as a new board member in an organization, who's going through the CEO transition, like at any time, because you know, you're kind of picking up halfway through. And then at the same time, to your point there was, I can't remember if we did stop the process and start over completely. Maybe we did, or there was a pause and they we looked at the pool. Maybe Kevin, do you remember?

Kevin

Wow, this is so rich, first of all, Nichole, I'm so glad you put this memory in play here. Yeah, I think we paused the process and try to increase the candidate pool in pursuit of candidates with more heft around racial equity work. And that was that was an amazing moment that it's worth slowing down I think and certainly back to what you shared Nichole because there's so much there that the presence and courage that was needed for you, as a relatively new board member, to call that timeout and like to call out the question is really important. And the way that the board responded is really important for us to celebrate, right? Because you were not shut down. You were not greeted by a kind of a stony silence or discomfort everybody heard you. And pretty quickly, as I recall, came to understand that like, yeah, that's right. We do have some excellent candidates here and we need more, and it's going to take a while. And that's one of the harder things a board can do, right? Because search processes gather a certain head of steam, and everyone is desperate to get to an outcome. We did. You know, all of this, ultimately, is about people, right. And we had a wonderful person who had stepped in as the interim executive director and was kind of holding up the sky for us. And she was able to continue doing so for months longer than we had proposed at the outset. That was another element of that story. So yeah, I think, I think that's a great example of how has this journey happened. And my recollection, also, Nichole, is that after that you ended up in the brain trust of the search. Maybe that's wrong, maybe I just thought you were more influential when you were.

Nichole

I didn't. But I do appreciate the thing that you just said, which is like how people responded, because I'm sorry to say this. But when I raised my hand and said something, I basically expected to have stony silence, and for the process to move forward, like I did not actually anticipate being listened to in the way that I was, which is why I think I remember it because I kind of walked away being like, why didn't I think I would be listened to but then I, you know, by that time, in my career, I had been on a lot of boards. So I wasn't like, naive about how these things work, too. But that was an interesting thing too to be like, why couldn't I imagine that folks could hear that, right. And you all did, and the process changed. So that was really an important growth moment for me.

Aleesha

And the outcome of that, I think, decision and the eventual the next thing was that the Board did decide to hire Kiran Ahuja, who was our now most recent past CEO of Philanthropy Northwest, I think did come in with a, a skill set around diversity, equity and inclusion particular had done that work as part of her work, I believe at the White House, and, you know, in other areas in DC, and you know, really brought that focus and energy to the staff. Kevin, you probably worked with Kiran, the closest for the longest. I'm curious what your memories were around that change maybe or was there key moments or change in your board chair, CEO relationship that you remember?

Kevin

I think that we were really fortunate that that's how it played out that Kiran was available and interested, when we ramped the process back up, there was a certain amount of luck and timing involved there. But I think she was really the right leader for us as the board was trying to pivot towards being much more intentional around issues of racial equity, much closer to where the staff felt they were on their journey. I think prior to Kiran entering the scene, there was probably a sense among the staff right or wrong, that they were doing a lot more work on these issues than the board was. And some of that might have been assumptions. But I think there was a sense of like, is the board with us? How with us are they? and Kiran brought such a skill set and depth of experience that I think she was able to work both sides of that dynamic, what's up with the staff and what's up with the board? I think Kiran stepped in and was puzzled by the glacial pace at which anything happens in philanthropy, as somebody who had who had been in the Obama administration working in that sort of, I don't know what to call it that like hothouse environment of being in DC, and every day is 14 hours long, et cetera. She and I had a lot of conversations where she was just trying to understand like, where is everybody sense of urgency, but I think she found her footing really well and managed to move us as quickly as we could be moved in a way that worked for the board and for the staff and for her personally as a leader. So that was that was just an exciting thing to be around. And we we were a good duo in that I show up as I show up right? This very, like old school. What what people used to think CEOs look like six foot two white straight guy and Kiran shows up as who she is. And between the two of us I think we were able to make an effective package particularly for the board. Those kinds of dynamics are interesting you sort of you just have to navigate whatever hand your dealt there. But we were I thought she and I working together were dealt a pretty effective hand that made. I think the Philanthropy Northwest board has come a long way since I left it from what I can tell. But I think when Kiran and I were working together, we were able to get things out a certain pathway that you all have been able to carry further. That's my not having been in the boardroom in more than three years. That's pretty sketchy, but that's my sense.

Nichole

We just didn't name the where we are today. I've been, you know, sometimes I'll have conversations and they'll think about and ask kind of who we are today. And it's pretty fun to tell people like we have 18 board members, 13 of them are people of color. The two communities we have the most representation from are actually Black and Indigenous people. We actually had two rounds of executive committees that were all women of color, we actually had one transition. So now we're still all women. It's still a very matrilineal and matriarchal society at Philanthropy Northwest, I like to say, but it's really great to hear you kind of reflect on that Kevin, and all that hard work, because we're pretty wildly different. Now, we are not your average philanthropy serving organization, I would say, but it didn't happen overnight. It was like, slow and steady, uncomfortable conversation, one meeting at a time, two steps forward, one step back that, you know, both of you had a lot to do, sorry to interject. But I even just think like, saying who we are today is super important.

Aleesha

I was gonna say, maybe this is a good moment for my short story of how I became board chair. Because I do think it was that transition moment, when Kiran approached me to become board chair at Philanthropy Northwest. I wasn't sitting on the existing executive committee, I was serving on committees, but had not been in a leadership role. And I had transitioned to my current Foundation, which is a very small small endowment foundation, very focused on our region in Bristol Bay and serving Alaska Native students and communities and culture. And when she asked if I was interested in in the role, I think, though, I, the the story I tell is I almost fall fell off my stool. You're sitting in, we had met for after work, and she had asked me, and the reason I was so surprised, I was so deeply surprised, was, to be honest, when I had seen previous board chairs of Philanthropy Northwest, they look like Kevin. And not only did they look like having, there was a, I thought you had to be a CEO of a large, mainstream foundation that was headquartered, probably in Seattle, in Kevin's case, Minneapolis, but you know, that had, you know, was really central to the, you know, the membership and had, you know, was able to make large donations like that, that type of thing. And so it was shocking to me. And I asked her, you know, why? And, you know, what was the intent, and she really did name like that we are, we're seeking a shift, you know, we we want to put away the the rule, the unwritten rules that have been in existence in this organization for a long time, we're going to put those aside, and we're going to center and invite people into leadership who have not historically been tapped for those roles. And that's why we think you're the right person. And I didn't say yes, right away. I did not, because I was I was worried, not so much that I couldn't do it, but how people would react to my brand of leadership and the vision that I would bring to that space and would I have the support that I needed and so I did I think I talked to maybe each of you about it, and you know, got your your thoughts and your you know, your feelings and definitely talked to La quen náay Medicine Crow and Susan Anderson, some of our other board colleagues and, you know, primarily our, you know, our board members of color to kind of assess their, their take on it and everyone was very, very supportive. And so that's when I you know, I did make the decision to do it, and I was really happy to serve it, but then we did have another CEO transition that I wasn't quite ready for. So that was the next thing that happened. But yeah, thank you for opening it up. And Kevin, you're gonna say something I'll pass it to you

Kevin

No, it's right in line with what you've been saying Aleesha, I think that one of the one of the things in this piece of our conversation is this notion of the unwritten rules. You just quoted Kiran as saying we want to we want to unpack or change some of these unwritten rules. That was specifically true within Philanthropy Northwest about how on the subject of how future chairs were identified, it my memory is it was not written down anywhere, like how does that happen? So it was being done by intuition, by field by judgment, by those board members who were already influential enough to be in that conversation. And that's one of the ways that exclusive practices can persist, despite people's good intentions, right? Nobody was sitting around saying, well, let's make sure that the chair is always a white man, or whatever. That was not. That conversation never happened in my experience. But what was happening was the people with all good intent were like sitting in conversations that were somewhat informal, there was no process encoded anywhere, about how does that decision bubble up within the organization. And one of the things that I was advocating for when I was on the board, and when I was chairing it was to change that like to let's be explicit, let's write down who holds this process of identifying future board leadership, how does it work? To what extent is it transparent or opaque? Let's own what we're doing and then we can improve what we're doing if we agree, it's not good enough. So I my memory is that, that Kiran approached you after the kind of informal process, I was just describing meaning like her and me and maybe the prior chair, sitting around and thinking, what should happen next? And I do think it was Kiran, who said, we're ready for a bit of a watershed moment here. Let's think differently. And I'm so glad that she did. The other thing before I relinquish the mic, again, that I want to mention is how important it is that you said yes. How important it was that Nichole said yes when I was trying to recruit her to the board, I realized it was the badass native women who were the real draw and not my persuasive skills. But and another similar memory that I have is talking with La quen náay Medicine Crow about maybe it was chairing the nominating and governance committee, I don't remember exactly what the ask was. But I remember her kind of looking at me like you want me to do what and why should I do that? And you could just tell that it was like, is this? Is this a thing I should say yes to? Or am I just being invited to a bad party so to speak, and whatever process she went through, to say yes to that invitation was also, I think, really important, these two successive slates of like members of the executive committee who are all women of color, the fact that that is what has happened is probably the thing I'm proudest to have been associated with as a board member. And to get there requires intentionality and a certain amount of people being willing to say yes, at a lot of different times, and a lot of different levels. And often, really, the trail begins in the nominating and governance committee, and the question of like, is, is diversity in every candidate pool of new board members going to be a priority? Because if you want to drive change, the answer to that has to be yes. If it's tacked on as an afterthought, that we need a more diverse board, you're never going to drive change at scale. If it's a thing that is always in the mix, and given a high level of importance, every darn cycle, that I think is when an organization can begin to change itself.

Aleesha

I think that's right and I appreciate those reminders, Kevin, because I think that absolutely, it started with energy, and fed the board, we saw who was being recruited into the board shift and change that gave us the platform. I think that we needed to speed up some of the conversation that was had we were having around race equity. When we were talking about Kiran before, and you were remarking on the glacial pace of change, it did feel like we were stuck for a while. And have you both remember this, but there was many a conversation around race equity, that we felt like we were having the same conversation. And we weren't naming it, we were naming it but we weren't moving. And there's a few things that I thought Kiran did that was helpful. That one is that she brought in some dynamic, powerful speakers that challenged the board in interesting ways and made us all, I think, made everyone think. And then also, she, there was some powerful conversations about people, you know, having their own, like their own experiences with identity that she invited that were quite personal in nature, but allowed us to get to know each other a little, a little better, do you all remember those, it was kind of a combination of personal stories, as well as some outside influencers that came in and talked with the board.

Nichole

I mean, I remember, I feel like there was like a dual track of one just spending time getting to know each other so we could build trust. And then I can also recall, a couple of really, really tough meetings and instances, a couple of which really, actually helped me find words and build an analysis around, maybe things that I had experienced most of my career, but I hadn't quite put my finger on what was happening. And so in some of the tough things we had to do, learn the hard way a couple times over. So I remember we had a board meeting in Medford and we had a panel and speakers to represent the community. And I left being so upset, because as a person who knows that community well, and has made grants there forever, there are all these like, messages that this is an all white community and there's no people of color. And actually, the people who have it toughest in Oregon, rural communities are white men. And I was I didn't quite have the right words, but I just remember feeling so pissed off. And being like A. those are untrue. That's not truthful facts, like we can all A. we have eyes in our heads and we're in a community where you can see tons of people of color and native folks B. we can we're pretty good at the internet, like none of that's true. And C, you can't bring a bunch of foundations to a community and tell them wrong things about that community, because that actually really harms that community. Right. And so the way I'm describing it to you now is like, I didn't have the right word, I just was very upset. And then we kind of went did another visit where something very similar happened again, in another part of our region, where it's like a panel of all white people explaining like the story of a community, you know, lovely people, certainly, but like not reflective at all. And so like that conversation was really, really tough. And it took us like, doing the same thing twice, to then have the conversation and then it was like double tough, because I think there was worry that by talking about that, that we were going to hurt the feelings of the white people who were on the panel or helped put the panel together, or make, there was so much concern that our white board members would get like upset, or it would be like really hard for them to be in a meeting to talk about how problematic it was that we kept having, like all white panels. And it was just like such an interesting moment, because I remember being like, well, who's the white board member who's upset? Is it Kevin? Like, who are we talking about? Like, who are we afraid of upsetting? And like? Is it this like mysterious whiteboard member, is it's a real person, like, what are we actually afraid of? Is it my Irish side, like, let's just get specific here. And but there was what I realized was like, there's so much fear, but there were so much  and I think this is so true for philanthropy as a whole where there's so much like caring and attentiveness to white feelings. And it was so totally socially acceptable that in that same audience where untruths were told, and stereotypes were advanced, the people of color were kind of like, well, you can just sit there and put up with it like you always do. You always have like, if that upsets you, that's kind of like, okay, we know racism is hard. But it was like, all the care was about white folks. And I think that we have to like really talk about that, bring that up again. And that was super tough. Like I I really don't know how the two of you remember it, but I really felt like that was a multi meeting conversation. And then I also feel like we had to have this whole other conversation at one point because there was this notion that if we focus too much on racial equity that we would like lose all of our members and lose all of our big members. And I was like, well who are we going to lose? You know, like, in a tight foundation? We're a big number, we're not going to stay if we don't do what racial justice, frankly, at the time, Jill, our current amazing CEO was our representative from the Gates Foundation, like, Jill wasn't going to stay if we didn't have a commitment like, Kevin, I don't think you were gonna stick around. I don't think Satterberg or like, I just was like, wait a minute, like, we have this idea that big philanthropy is against racial justice. But the truth is, our biggest members actually are very committed, and a ton of our medium sized members are very committed. And a ton of our smaller members are very committed. So it's like, well, who are the people we're so afraid of upsetting? And like, why do their feelings get elevated above everyone else's. And there's just an interesting moment of like, that like map. I mean, we are a membership organization. So we worry about memberships. But we weren't necessarily mapping the power and the memberships. And the values alignment, we were kind of just assuming some things that we needed to unpack. But that was pretty challenging as well, I recall.

Aleesha

Yes, I remember those things, as well. And thank you for just coloring in more of that period of time. Because I do remember those, that series of meetings and also the meetings in different parts of our of our region. And when you're talking about it does remind me Kevin, what you were saying around this culture of politeness that, you know, goes with boards. And I remember this conversation around, you know, politeness. And then I remember having a lot and leading a lot of conversations around, how do we demonstrate how we can how to disagree with each other? How do we demonstrate talking to each other in real ways, at the board table, when we're not aligned? When we see things in a different light. And we do that without harming each other. And that is a tough thing for any board of directors, I think to do, because of this politeness issue that that comes up. But we did see, I think there are some key board members, both board members of color, and white board members that stood up to demonstrate it intentionally and on a regular basis. And it was powerful, it was powerful to watch and know, be witness to those moments of disagreement. And how they would I don't know if resolve is the right word, because they weren't always resolved, but acknowledged. And I think that was a really that was a powerful growth period of time, I think for the for the board. Kevin, do you remember that?

Kevin

I may not remember it with the precision that you do, Aleesha, I do remember it. And I, I think you're right. I mean, we had board members who were willing and able to sort of step into that. I remember some of that occurring around the kind of personal sharing that I think Nichole was remembering that Kiran had led us through moments where people sharing some personal story or truth, like the way they were telling their story landed with a colleague really differently than they thought it was going to. And in that moment, the question is, does everybody just sort of lean back and hope the moment passes? Or do we take a beat and say, wait, let's, let's stop here. Let's talk about this. Let's let's make ourselves vulnerable enough here that we acknowledge what just happened, I remember that type of thing happening at least once. And that's very difficult space for a board to occupy until, until the board gets good at it, right until that starts to feel not risky, so much as like really rich and valuable. And I think over time, we built up a little bit of muscle memory about like, it is actually better to acknowledge that we're in conflict about something, or that our experiences lead us to look at the same thing and see different meaning in it. Like unless we could admit that we can't really work together across difference. We just sort of pretend the differences isn't there.

Nichole

Well I think when we made the we had been talking and talking and talking about making racial equity that the core value of our focus and I feel like there was like, all that strengthening, where it was like finally, leaders were like, call the vote if folks want to vote against it, let them vote against that. And we actually got unanimous support, but it was like, I think strengthening that ability to like get to that point so that we could make that decision while we were still figuring out how to live that and have that value be apparent that that's our core and primary value. But I think we're in good company with many folks that are trying to figure that out.

Kevin

You know, if I may, I'd love to circle back, Nichole, you did a wonderful job of explaining the sort of race slot, the racialized dynamics around who's comfortable and who's uncomfortable, whose like I don't know emotional safety is being coveted and whose is like, not even considered. And one thing I want to add to what you said is that I think I'm like most white board members, and that like I would, I would have been appalled if I understood like, people are tiptoeing around what they think my sensitivities are, you know, you were saying like, who is this board member? Is it Kevin? It never frankly, it never crossed my mind that anybody thought they were tiptoeing around my sensitivities. But I find myself thinking, I wonder how many of my fellow white board members actually felt the exact same way, like what they would might, they might have been willing to be pushed or challenged, or made uncomfortable, they might have preferred that to being to be handled with kid gloves without anybody saying that's what was going on. I don't know, I don't want to be I don't want to be naive about that. But the other thing, and this is the harder edge of this point, I guess, white board members whose sensitivities are that fragile, probably aren't the best board members. And maybe if the water gets too hot, it's time for transition within the board, you know, because you just never get anywhere by refusing to talk about what needs to be talked about. And I so resonate with what I have learned the truth of what you observed about, you know, that pannel setup you were describing, on a site visit. Somehow, it seems to be unspoken, but okay, that our board colleagues of color may be sitting there increasingly angry at the content that's being shared. That's okay. But it's not okay to challenge that content. And, you know, not in a way that's going to blow up the room, right. But at some point to say, hey, can we reflect on what we just heard, and the flaws in the way we just chose to structure our learning, the, the discomfort, if that's the word for it really needs to be shared in an equitable way, and not loaded on to board members of color, which I think is what all too often happens within boards.

Nichole

I mean, I picked on you, Kevin, but honestly, at that time, I was looking around the room at all of our white board members. And I was like, I think there'll be fine, like they can handle it. These are grown professional people. And if they're not, then we can have a different conversation. But I agree with you, I but but I think the nature of I mean, it's just the nature of a philanthropy serving organization is such that it's like, keep your members, keep your members happy. In our mind, the most important members are the white people, even though the field of philanthropy is changing. There's tons of very diverse women, people of color in leadership roles of big foundations now, and medium foundations like it's totally changing. But I think that world view of who counts and who's important, is deeply embedded. I mean, I, institution that I lead, there's not a week that goes by that I don't have an encounter with someone who, essentially they're like, it's nice to meet you, but who's the real person in charge? And what they're looking for is, where's the white guy? You know, it's just like, we have to continue to do the great work that we already are and shifting who leads but we also have to, like free our mind about who can be in charge. And that is the longer harder work and it's my experience myself participating it I'm well embarrassed to say that but I participate in on occasion, and it's really long and hard and difficult work.

Kevin

I think we've already been sort of mining these memories for what did we learn from them and what did we learn from one another, but I want to make sure we really dig into that a little bit. I'd love to hear what you two think you've learned from being a part of this journey with Philanthropy Northwest in particular. I'll kick it off by saying I learned from Nichole. What it looks like to be sort of calmly fearless. I happen to know that Nichole was once nicknamed the fearless giraffe in some kind of group where they were giving one another animal nicknames and Nichole was the fearless giraffe and I've seen it I've seen it in the boardroom and it tends to be rather calm, quiet and very impactful. So I really aspire to be that way when the moment is right, Nichole, I've learned that for sure. But what? What about you? Can you as you think about this journey for you over a number of years, what do you think you've been learning or observing as you go?

Nichole 

You're in a lot of trouble for referencing the fearless giraffe. We'll, thank you of a great nickname for you to Kevin or you can just become like if you're part of a pack of fearless giraffes. I feel like adorable animal nicknames are welcome in every space I'm ever going to be. I think the the learning for me is 2013 to 2023, ten years is actually the blink of an eye if we really think about it. And so while maybe if you're in the meetings in the uncomfortable moments, it can feel long and hard. And at moments tedious. I certainly had moments where I was like, am I in the place where I can make the biggest difference for the people that I feel I should be accountable to I have had those thoughts and those questions. Yeah. And I also feel like in ten years to go from an institution that was like, totally led and held and dominated by straight white men to be the multiracial, multicultural organization that we are with the focus that we have. It's worth it. And I think the lesson for me is I have I know intellectually that things take a long time. I know in my bones and in my body, and in my spirit, they take a long time. But in emotionally, I have very little patience and a real sense of urgency. And so the lesson for me is like, how do you hold that urgency? How do you get really clear on like, who we're here to do this work for. And at the end of the day, for me, we might be a membership, organization, serving foundations, but the real people we are accountable and our serving are the people of our region, and the people who have been structurally excluded from opportunity. So anything we can do, to support our members and foundations to like, truly be in service of the people of our region. It's worth it, even if it takes ten years, it's worth it to get closer to that goal. And so I think that lesson around like, you can have a sense of urgency, you can absolutely say like, I'm not going to accept a bunch of like, unwritten rules that that advantage some and disadvantage others. And sometimes they actually do the work. So it is true, and it is resilient. And actually it will stay with you it it can take longer. And so that patience and sticking with it is really, really important. And we have been lucky that through multiple executive transitions, and we have a phenomenal CEO Jill, I feel so optimistic and hopeful for our future under her leadership. And I don't think we would have got Jill if we hadn't done a bunch of the hard work that we had done. And created the focus that we have, like I think it's paying off in not just the leadership of Jill but the the team that she's putting together and the organizational culture that she is building and fostering and the word culture that we're fostering too. What have you learned Aleesha?

Aleesha

I'm really enjoying your learning some writing some of them down because I think they are critical. Maybe just on that last point with Jill's leadership and coming into our organization, I do think lesson learned is that hiring of a CEO, you know, we know as a board, it's our most important job and duty to have a CEO that striving towards the goals that we have in mind. And those were two really critical and important hires in this 13 year timeframe. And I don't know if we would be in exactly the same place without having made those decisions both with Kiran and now with with Jill's leadership. So definitely lesson learned. And then kind of on the flip side of that, however, is you know, I know we're talking today on this podcast specifically about that role of the board in forwarding equity. And I do think it's a decision that has to be led by the board and Nichole your memory around at a certain point we just had to call the vote and just make the decision. And I think that urgency came from you, and other board members, I think when we have a CEO maybe particularly of a membership organization, they're always going to be considering the bottom line considering where the funding is coming from making sure that our, you know, members are continue to be feel represented. And so it was actually critical in our case that that impetus itself came from the board to make that decision in a very, very black and white way. And from there, I think she and the rest of the staff have really been able to build upon that decision and start living into that, you know, throughout our, all of our programming, all of the different governance structures that we had, but it really was a board decision and a board vote. So as others are listening to this podcast, and maybe imagining their own organizations and where they're at, I think that's really critical. So the through line has been, who do you have at your board table, that can lead this dialogue, and then, you know, getting them to that place where they're ready to make the decision, and look forward into the future. I think that's my, those are my takeaways.

Kevin

And just one takeaway playing off of that one, Aleesha, is that I often think of philanthropy as like the land of self imposed constraints. And I imagine there would be some folks listening to the podcast who would say something like, I can't have that conversation with my board. And my take on that, from this experience, and others, is you got to push through that find those allies within the board, who are ready to have or lead that conversation and do it, and if it gets a little messy, it gets a little messy. Because if you stop at all, we can't have that conversation, then you never do. So when I look at the board, I stepped on to 2010 versus the one that Nichole leads today and 2023. It's very, very clear to me that a lot of conversations routinely happen now, that did not routinely happen back then. And that's been a journey, right? But there are decision points all along the way. And anytime we let ourselves stop ourselves with our self imposed constraints, we're just repeating an error. I think that's one of the things that I'll take away from this. If I'm reading the time, right, we should get into the final piece that Nichole's gonna kind of facilitate. Right?

Nichole

I feel like you kicked it off really well, Kevin, with this. So in one sentence, what do we need to normalize or talk about more as a sector to advance racial equity work at the board level? And one of the comments I made earlier that I will emphasize, I think, is this question of like, who are we accountable to? Who is our constituent base? And whose opinion do we care the most about? And so I think, if boards can be really clear about who they're accountable to, it can be wildly freeing to do what is most courageous, most essential and most additive to advancing racial equity. I'm absolutely breaking the one sentence rule. I broke it four sentences ago. But I think that can be a really, incredibly powerful experience. Because as uncomfortable as it is to admit, philanthropy spends a lot of time worrying about what other foundations think, or worrying about what other donors or politically influential people think, and not as much time thinking about what our grantees think, or the people whose lives we want to be in service of improving, and it's an uncomfortable conversation. But when you can get clear on that your ability to feel powerful and free to do what's truly right, is exponential.

Kevin

Well, I'll go next. So Aleesha, can bring it on home with what I'm sure will be superior wisdom to what I have to say I actually want to go back to one of the basics here, which is the topic of board diversity. To me, what we need to normalize is the idea that non-diverse boards are failing by definition, back to us as the sector of self imposed limitations. I think every so that the data on this is that foundation boards are woefully undiverse, and that we don't show a great head of steam about doing much about that as a sector. And I just think it's time to call the question whatever you think your constraint is get over it. Bylaws can be changed. I mean, whatever it is like because I think I've never I have never met a family foundation that identifies as such, and that has this constraint of like, well, only family members can be on the board. But I personally having been in the field long time and done with that argument, I just think change the rules. If we want to pursue our missions in alignment with what we say our values are, we need diverse boards, we just do and it can be done once you decide to do it. I really believe that whatever reason you think it can't be done in your own context is almost certainly not true. So that to me, is what we need to normalize. And that was also way more than one sentence, I do follow your lead when I can Nichole, what do you think, Aleesha?

Aleesha

I think similarly, my sentence is, we need to normalize, talking about power, and the relationship between power and resources and money, period. I think that as philanthropies and foundations, the thing that we do most often is give money. And yet we talk about money very little. And we talk about that holding of power, at the board level, or within boards, maybe even less than we talk about money. And the decisions that we need to make, Kevin to your point are, how do we start to give that power away? And to whom? And it should be where we want those resources going. Right? And how do we make sure that the communities that we're wanting to impact the people that we are trying to serve as organizations are really the ones in the power seats, helping us direct where we want these resources to go? Just in better ways. So again, you know, maybe not more than maybe less than one sentence, or more than one sentence for sure. But that's what I think is let's talk more about the power, relationships and money.

Nichole

I have so deeply enjoyed this time with all of you both going down memory lane, but also having a clear eyed look to our future.

Aleesha

Well, thank you as well, I have, it's been a wonderful afternoon with each of you. And I want to thank you, Nichole, in particular, for taking up this mantle of board leadership and carrying it into their future. We gave Jill a lot of accolades and I want to give you the same accolades for just I am deeply grateful that you agreed to become the board chair and lead this next iteration of Philanthropy Northwest. And Kevin, it was so good to see you. Especially because it has been three years since you've been on the board, which I also think is crazy. Time flies. And thank you for your previous leadership as board chair, just, you left us in a really good space and allowed us to take up this work. And I'm really deeply grateful to you for that. So thank you good to spend time.

Kevin

Well, it's it's been wonderful to spend time with the two of you again, it was always a joy, being on that board with you and being in community with you in that way. And I'm so impressed by the leadership that you've brought over the years since I stepped out of the picture. Just wonderful to be talking with you today. And I hope to see you in three dimensions again soon.

Nancy (Host)

Wow. I am so grateful for the vulnerability that all three of our guests modeled today. And as a Philanthropy Northwest staff member I personally learned a lot about our own organization's journey too. Thanks so much to Nichole, Aleesha and Kevin, for kicking us off with such a powerful conversation. You can find more information on this episode, including guest bios, show notes and additional resources at thegivingpractice.org And if you have a topic that you think philanthropy should be talking about more, let us know by emailing hello@thegivingpractice.org. This podcast was written and produced by Aya Tsuruta and Emily Daman with audio engineering and editing support by Podfly and graphic design by Asha Hossain. A special thanks to our Philanthropy Northwest and Giving Practice teams for their thought partnership and the Ford Foundation for making this project possible. I'm Nancy Sanabria, and we'll see you next time.