Monika Kalra Varma and Julia Wilson

Monika 

But yeah, there's some tough moments in this in this journey. There definitely are. And I've been through that in other organizations and been in the same position. But here I got to talk about, and I got to just show up as I was, which was really incredible.

Nancy (Host) 

From The Giving Practice at Philanthropy Northwest this is "Can We Talk About...?" a project to normalize the messiness of leading for racial equity in philanthropy and reflect on what it takes to create lasting transformation. In our pilot season, leaders across philanthropy, reflect with one another on their experiences working to advance racial equity at the governance level. We're asking leaders to explore sticky topics, look for learning, practice vulnerability, and give themselves and each other permission to speak in first draft. And what we ask of you is to do the same. In this episode, we're joined by two phenomenal leaders from BoardSource Monika Kalra Varma and Julia Wilson. Here they are introducing themselves.

Monika 

I'm Monika Kalra Varma, I'm the president and CEO of BoardSource. I use she/her pronouns. I'm a South Asian woman, and the first leader of color at BoardSource, and I am the mother of three wonderful children, who my husband and I enjoy raising, and we are based right outside of Washington, DC and Virginia.

Julia 

And I'm Julia Wilson. I am the outgoing Chair of the BoardSource Board of Directors, I use the she/her pronouns series. I'm a white woman with mental health conditions that are sometime disabling, including as a survivor of trauma. I am also a mom of two adult women. And I live in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Nancy (Host) 

Monika and Julia, give us a behind the scenes look at BoardSource's, intentional work of nurturing a board culture that supports, sustains and advances race, equity leadership, a culture that creates space for leaders to show up as they are, and encourages talking about the real stuff out loud, even when it's hard. One that's fueled by authenticity, and propelled by trust. Without further ado, let's listen in.

Julia 

Hi, Monika.

Monika 

Hi, Julia.

Julia 

I was thinking that we might start by just introducing ourselves a little bit more like why we're here and what our roles are, and then maybe touch base about our hopes and dreams for this conversation. How does that sound to you?

Monika 

That sounds wonderful.

Julia 

So I've been a member of the BoardSource board for six years now and served as chair for three of those last years, including during our executive transition. And in terms of my work world, I'm a leadership coach and consultant for systems change nonprofits around the country, after spending all of my career in the nonprofit sector in a variety of roles, including sitting in the executive seat. So that's probably enough for me, what about you?

Monika 

Well, I am the no longer brand new but a year in President and CEO of BoardSource and the first leader of color, in my role at BoardSource. And most of my career was spent in the Human Rights and Civil Rights spaces. So very different CEO than BoardSource had in the past, I most recently served as the executive director of the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights of the San Francisco Bay Area. And maybe I'll just share a little bit about who BoardSources is to frame our conversation of so BoardSource most folks know us and I used us as sort of the go to middle of the night gold standard of anything governance or leadership related, so a real resource hub of rich resources and technical assistance. And over the last few years, BoardSource has really been evolving into providing leadership, thought leadership for where governance should go, and really the centering the importance of race equity, and its work. So that's a little bit about BoardSource.

Julia 

Love them. And then you know, before we dive into talking about exactly the journey that you were pointing to there, I'm super curious to just hear like, what are your hopes and dreams for this conversation that we're having now?

Monika 

Yeah, well, I'm just excited to be here because I feel like so many conversations around a race equity and race equity and governance. Get stuck in the messiness of at all and how hard it is. And what I'm really excited about is that our conversation in the in The Giving Practice podcast overall, is kind of feels like flooding the world with stories about what's possible, and how transformational it is to engage in this work. And we'll be real about it. And it's not that it's not messy, but I my hope for today is that we bring a lot of joy and possibility into the conversations around race equity journeys.

Julia 

Wow, that really resonates with me. And I feel so similarly, about this moment, you know, BoardSource, really intentionally chose to be at this big moment of change. And so it feels really good to have this moment together to kind of take a step back, get the bird's eye view on, like, what's happened, and where are we now? And what are the takeaways from that, and do that sort of joint reflection together. So I'm just really grateful for this opportunity.

Monika 

Julia, we have known each other for a really long time and have a deep friendship. And so I feel like should we maybe we should be transparent about our relationship to start this off?

Julia 

Yeah, it feels good to not hide the ball around that, like we didn't meet. So yeah, if I, if I pick up my piece of that, like, here's how I think about it, right, we were first connected, because we were both working at organizations that were really focused on pro bono, so volunteer legal services for folks who needed some kind of legal assistance. And we just clicked because, like, how I think about it is that our brains work similarly, around systems. And we were applying that to pro bono, right. And then we got to work together in the San Francisco Bay area. We're both executives in advocacy, civil rights, legal services organizations. And we got to be part of this really small, intimate and incredibly supportive cohort of executives, doing work around race equity, both for ourselves, like who we are as humans, and also for our organizations. So I think we've been building off of both of those things, as we now work together BoardSource but I'm, I'm curious, like, how would you think about it? And how would you describe how maybe our relationship has evolved in this this year that we've been working together in our roles through BoardSource?

Monika 

Oh well, I love that question because I, it's such a gift to get to work with you, because we've known each other for so long. And we do think and care about and our hearts are in the same place about this work. And I think how I would describe it as that we've just been able to evolve into a space where we get to bring all of that and sort of fuse it with our love of the sector, the nonprofit sector. And so I think that we have just been able to bring our, the trust that we have the connection that we have, and because of that be really real and authentic about the stuff that we're doing. Which allows us to do all this stuff that comes with being chair and CEO in the midst of a major leadership transition. And because we're BoardSource also hold in our hearts and in our thinking, what we're doing and how it impacts the sector, and what we can do amongst ourselves that might provide structure and tools and approaches that might be helpful to others.

Julia 

I so appreciate you saying that. Because it makes me think, you know, maybe we take a moment here and just say like, something about the mechanics of how we've been working together, because that might be useful for folks to hear. Like if we get down into the tactical level, like how have we structured this?

Monika 

Yeah. So you know, this was the first time I worked with a board chair where we met every single week. And it was just expansive to have that. And that's not to say that that works for everyone. But for us, it really, really worked because we had time to think about, you know, the basic things around governance, and what is the arc of a board meeting? And what do we need to accomplish? But we also got to connect on possibility and where are we going? And why does what we do matter? And for me, personally, it's been such a gift because, you know, for sure transition is not easy and to have someone who is there on a regular basis to sort of be a soundboard or a support or a thought partner has been really, really special. So I think that that, you know, in terms of our intentionality of structure around that has been really important. Is there anything that you would add to that, Julia?

Julia 

I mean, I feel so similarly, and I just think that element of trust, I mean, we had the benefit of having built trust in our previous relationships. But that's not to say that, that that should be a given. And I think, you know if board chairs and CEOs are meeting for the first time in those roles than working on trust is like step one. I don't know if that resonates with you.

Monika 

Absolutely. And it is my my hope so much of this year, has been me thinking gosh, if everyone in these moments had some of these structures in place, what a game changer it would be. And so I think that's that's right, not everyone gets to have their board chair be of someone that they've known worked with for, I don't know, maybe a decade now or close to that. But we can all build trust.

Julia 

Well and it strikes me that that trust was essential when we hit the the rockier moments in in the first year, which there are always going to be right. And so I'm thinking in particular, about, you know, a place where the board's process didn't go as smoothly as we would have hoped, right. And so that moment in the year where suddenly the board's responsibility around performance feedback, and compensation came into play. And I think, you know, the board has reflected on this. So I'm speaking both from my own experience, but informed by hearing other board members reflect on this too, including with you that that process just did not go as smoothly as we all would have hoped. And I think about that now, and I think that, you know, all of the systems at play, positional authority that the board holds, systems of advantage and disadvantage in our country, right? They come into play when there's when there's talk about compensation and feedback and the board's sort of hierarchical role pops up. And I think if we hadn't had the kind of trust that we did, to be able to say, oh, my gosh, this doesn't, this is feeling different, like, what's here to open up those conversations, and then to be able to bring in our amazing, you know, Vice Chair and now chair, Mark Shamli, and bring him in, and then be able to talk with the whole board about like, hey, this isn't going the way that we would have wanted it to, we need to redo we need to talk about it, we need to acknowledge that it's happened, we need to say to you that we understand that it's happened, and have some repair and redesign. And I don't know if that resonates with you that that, that that kind of is what we're building off of.

Monika 

Yeah, and I think maybe we can, we can even step back for a moment and share a little bit about what happened, which is a very normal thing. And then I started in August, which is not our normal year, calendar year and our normal process. And so there were just, you know, I think, the best well, intention, connections and trust, when we disrupt our process, all of a sudden, the checks and balances we have can be thrown off. And so just for our listeners let you know, it was we had things in my offer that we we hadn't connected on about how that was going to be different and how it was going to work during the year. But there's such rich learning and those missteps of okay, what does the board do they stop, and they have a real conversation about it, and they did everything in their power to make it right. And so there's a lot of rich learning in there, too. But I wanted to just pause and give a little bit of context and what happens there.

Julia 

Totally. And it you know, it makes me think as you're saying that there's sort of two things, maybe as takeaways, you know, from my side in the chair seat, one is, there was something really important to not brush over the fact that, that that there was some some disruption in the relationship channel, there just was, and to not to try to circumvent that, but just face it head on, like to turn towards the thing that's hard. And the second was, you know, I think, I think you and I, and and you and the board, we've been really intentional about creating a partnership, like shared leadership, a lateral flat relationship as much as possible. And for boards that are doing that, to not be surprised, or maybe to think about in advance that the minute compensation comes into play, you have to pay attention differently. And so to not be surprised by that.

Monika 

Yeah I love that. That's that's such an important thing to highlight,

Julia 

Well you know, I know that this was not the only sort of, sort of rough, rocky moment for you as as the first BIPOC leader at BoardSource. And so I'm wondering if we, if we open up the scope a little bit and you think about those moments this year, what what else comes to mind for you like what else would you highlight from onto the tougher side of things?

Monika 

You know, I was thinking a lot about, you know, when BoardSource's world we're always thinking about what is the structure or the tool that we can offer? Or what what can the board do differently. And I think what I want to just sort of ground ourselves in to is that as CEOs of nonprofits, even if we've been through this before, we're still new and the ground is a little shaky, and we're trying to get our own bearings and I kind of want to normalize that it doesn't matter. You know, you can you can leave an organization feeling like you know everything and you've got everything under control, and then you walk into a new place and everything is different, the ground is different. And for me, I was moving from doing civil rights work in the Bay Area, which is a very different community than you know the stakeholders and the funders and the spaces that we work in at BoardSource. And there was a period of time where I was meeting with a number of stakeholders and folks in the in the philanthropy world, and they were all the little, you know, what we call microaggressions? The little things that make you think you're going crazy and saying, why am I feeling off? What was wrong with that conversation? That didn't feel okay. And it was really, it was sort of the continuum of little things of real interrogation of why DEI mattered, and why diversity on boards mattered. And I felt like there was a different energy around that it was almost like going back in law school and Socratic method of like, well tell me this, and what's the impact of that. And then there was the other end of that, which was, you know, people saying to my face, you know, you really shouldn't lead with race and every conversation, you go into every room you go into, and, and, and so they're really small things that sort of build. And then for, for me, there was a moment, at the end of the year, I had put out a letter to our community, just introducing who I was, and also naming that we were tracking my year as a as the first leader of BoardSource, and BIPOC leader BoardSource and capturing the lessons. And we got a couple of responses that were really aggressive. And that was kind of the it was like the last straw and the long sort of several months. And I remember coming to check in with you Julia, and with Mark, our Vice Chair, and I just shut up and I said, I don't know what's going on with me. I'm just not okay, today. Like, it's like, this was the last straw. I don't, I don't know what to do. And I remember you and Mark saying, what do you need, and I was like, I don't know what I need. I just don't know, I just know, I'm here as I am today. And Mark said, Well, maybe we, you just need us to be shoulder to shoulder with you. And so that is even even during some of the tough moments. Just that sort of heart connection and trust that we've had Julia with with you and I, but also built with Mark and others of the board and having that support. But yeah, there's some tough moments in this, in this journey. There definitely are. And I've been through that and other organizations and been in the same position. But here, I got to talk about it. And I got to just show up as I was, which was really incredible.

Julia 

You know, Monika, I just want to thank you for all of that, and for your willingness to share it here. And I'm just noticing, like, you know, to turn towards the hard stuff. I knew we were going to talk about this those moments, right? We designed that we would talk about them. And I am feeling in my body the impact, again, of the fact that you lived through that. And so I'm sorry, because it should not be that way. It should not be that way. And you know, as you were describing those again, it makes me really think about the fact that, you know, we had all of the the risk factors and the ingredients of the glass cliff, in our ecosystem in this environment. And I'm referring, of course, right to the building movement projects report glass cliff, right, which the experiences and challenges of leaders of color as they attain those the executive roles, right, the highest positions. So it just reminds me that like our universe was not like rainbows and unicorns, this year, every ingredient that would lead a leader to the edge or over that that proverbial glass cliff was in existence, but there was, this was something different here. Like maybe these these relationships, and the way that we we were working together helped mitigate or address or as you said, give the space at least a talk about the fact that they were happening.

Monika 

Yeah and I will say as you're talking, I too, had a sort of emotional reaction as I was talking or felt it in my body. And I appreciate you naming that. Because I then what I also started picturing, as you were talking, is what it was like, so we had that conversation, just you, me and Mark and then being able to share that in our larger board meeting and executive session at our next we had a board meeting soon after. And I remember looking around that room and saying, Wow, look at this board. There are so many leaders of color in this room who have experienced it, and experienced it in much harder ways than I was experiencing in the moment. And there was no you know, we always said there's no traumas sweepstakes, right? Like we all have different things but there was so much empathy and understanding of, of just being that shoulder to shoulder across the entire board. That is something really special and it's an it's you know, we'll we'll get to how we got there and what our board went through to get to that place. But it's in those tough moments, right, the no rainbows and unicorn moments where when you have those folks sitting around the table, who truly get it, and who care and are committed to the same sort of purpose and direction that you're going in, it is really a very different experience than when things like that have happened in the past. And my hope is that every every leader of color in transition right now, you know that that one day that that will be the norm, what I what I was able to experience in that moment.

Julia 

Wow, that just crystallizes for me the like, the big why, like, if I could travel back in time, six years ago and say to the board, then like, guess what, there's going to be this really important moment. And we're going to have the people around the table who can meet that moment skillfully. Oh, man. I mean, I'm feeling super emotional about that. Like really emotional about that, because there was a big why here, but we didn't know it was like it felt there was no foregoing conclusion that we'd be able to meet that moment. So thank you for crystallizing that for me.

Monika 

Well, maybe we can turn to what is our moment right now, you and I have often talked about where we are in BoardSource's journey as being sort of this moment of inflection. How would you describe it from your perspectiveJulia?

Julia 

Oh, wow, that's great. You know, there was something that you were saying earlier about the transformation that BoardSource has gone through from sort of a, you know, a technical assistance provider around governance to more of a leadership voice and sort of thinking about, you know, where does the sector need to go and being part of that movement forward? And I think as part of that, like, what does it mean to take a leadership stance to have a sort of a change mentality about the sector BoardSource started asking staff leadership at the time and Wallace on the board? You know, what is it that the sector needs, and it was really clear where we landed, support and moving towards centering equity and race equity, specifically, and shifting power towards the communities that the nonprofits serve. And so when Anne announced that she was leaving, and moving to the next phase of her professional journey, the board was so aligned and focused around, if that's the forward momentum that we want, that we think the sector needs. This is the moment to bring in the leader, who has the experience, the perspective, a philosophy, the mindset, the skills to move into the next phase. And even if we don't know exactly yet, what that next phase looks like, we know we want to be with a leader who's like, yeah, I've got I've got glimpses and a vision for how to move in that direction. And so we were super explicit about that in the job description, right, we put it like the the first bullet in the job description was like, this leader will deepen and expand BoardSource's work to spark board level change to advance racial equity in the organizations. And then you met that, that invitation in all of the interviews and your thinking and your writing and the board was just like, yes, yes to all of that, which is not to gloss over the fact that there is also even in the board's enthusiasm, there's a burden on the leader, leader of color, who's stepping in, and then charged with that work. So with all of that, that's what my side, how would you describe the moment that we're in?

Monika 

I think it's a really exciting moment. It's really, it is what I, what drew me to BoardSource, and where I knew BoardSource was going. And you you think you now in the interview process and in the conversations and you and you think that we're all aligned, and now we're at this moment where like, Okay, we've presented the board with a theory of change. And that theory of change looks very different than where we've been before we are centering race equity, in our work, we are going to shift from putting out just what is the best practice and curating that amongst ourselves, to really leading with humility and listening and learning from those who do this work. Who know what works well in a boardroom, who know what doesn't work well in a boardroom, and then sort of bringing our BoardSource 30 years of experience and governance practice sort of mindset, to meet together and provide resources that meet people really where they are, and in the ways that we digest them. And my hope, is that where this will all lead is that together BoardSource really centered in community, the community of leaders of these organizations and really in the purpose of serving the communities that we partner with that together we'll come up with an evolved governance practices to meet organizations in the sector where we've always needed to be. To really to get there together, so that's the moment that we're at. And that's not to sugarcoat the fact that changes change and change is hard. And we are in the deep change management process. And just because we have the vision doesn't mean that we don't have to, we don't have all the anxiety that comes with it. And, you know, I fully own that, like, because I can see it, and I'm so excited about it, I want to be there, like yesterday. And so we're, you know, they're all all that comes with it. So there is a big moment of inflection and that all of that, but I think the moment is really an exciting one for BoardSource. And I'm just really thrilled that I get to be in this role right now.

Julia 

I'm thrilled too every time I hear you talk about it, I get like so inspired, it does not get stale Monika.

Monika 

So, as you kind of alluded to, this has been a long journey for BoardSource, to get to this moment. And we sort of committed before we got here today to really be as authentic and talk about the real stuff. And so. So, Julia, you've been on the board for a long time. And you've seen a lot and you know, the stories of what happened before you got here. How would you describe how we got here? Who was the BoardSource that you joined? And what was it like? What was the evolution like?

Julia 

Yeah, thank you for that question. I want to try to avoid the sort of boring chronological march, right? Because it's been nearly a decade as I understand it, like nearly a decade of the work on this, and of which I've been a part of only six years, right? So it's my perspective, I'm not speaking on behalf of the board. But if I think about some key moments, or maybe learnings and you know, thinking about your question, Monika, I think you're right. It feels to me from the inside, that the BoardSource board that I joined, was a very much a board in sort of a rocky moment of sensemaking. And, honestly, lack of alignment, on the question of whether the board should undertake race equity work at all, like my understanding is that around the time that recruitment conversations started with me, the board had one or more very challenging conversations about whether the board should even take on racial equity work. But you know, if I take a step back, I think some of the things were to say, like, the work was not rushed, right, it's had, it's been six or more years, maybe closer to a decade, so not rushed. And a lot of the work was internal to begin with. And I think that helps in some ways, because there were sort of layers of trust and work being laid down without an external audience, like it was, there was no performative element of it. It was like taking place in the board, for the board and for the organization. I think there was a sort of common combination of staff leadership, certainly Anne Walstad and board leadership that were just kind of quietly determined. So the board just kept having these conversations, even when there was feedback on the evaluations for every board meeting, that the conversations were not landing well, for some folks, like, it's not like it was comfortable, we and we would just then talk about the feedback that the conversations weren't comfortable, you know, our board has, has like, adopted this mantra of like, we're gonna say the real shit out loud. And so even when we could not agree about things, we agreed, at least to keep talking about them. And I think there's something there and me for me about like, we were aligned about staying in relationship, even when there was disagreement. And the BoardSource board women we invested time and energy in those kinds of relationships inside and outside of the boardroom, getting to know each other as human beings, not just as board members. And so even when things were really messy, I think that that piece was foundational. You know, and we had some natural board turnover as people termed off, which then allowed the board to become really intentional about recruitment and making experience and skill and willingness and comfort around race equity, to be one of the key factors in recruitment. And then we had staff leadership in a senior leader in Jim Taylor, who just, you know, was leading the work internally at BoardSource, who was bringing that lens to the program work and was a tremendous partner with Anne to the board in the Board's own work. So those are the some of the key things I think, I would pull out.

Monika 

And now we have a board that 73% BIPOC, which is just amazing to think that it's been less than a decade. And so much work has been done. And you feel it, you feel it and the relationship pieces and is so important and some of the intentionality around, it's really simple stuff. We have dinner the night before we have a board meeting. And we don't have an agenda, we just are with each other. And it's I don't know, it changes the dynamic. When you walk into the boardroom and you do your business. It's like the little things along the way that help us lean in a little bit. And so I really appreciate you sharing some of that history.

Julia 

Yeah, it makes me think to Monika, that you're right, that that those investments in just being together, pay off, there's benefits that you can't necessarily quantify until you're in those hard, hard conversations. You know, that makes me remember, too, that the board engaged together in in a transformative learning moment. So the entire board, every board member, committed to participating in a two day training on race equity and racism in the United States, through the Race Equity Institute during the pandemic. And in my one on one conversations every year with board members when I was chair, so many people referred to that shared moment, the learning, shared vocabulary, sharing the emotional impact of being in that learning environment together, that was kind of an anchor for for folks, both as individual board members, and in this collective work that we were doing together. Yeah, and thanks for, like, reminding me that like where the board is now. And you know, that moment where the board was, you know, more than majority people who identify as BIPOC which we celebrated. And I think, you know, when we were talking about that moment, where you were able to come and share the tough moments with the board. That's why it mattered, right? This is a board that has the capability to authentically be present around race equity, and has an authorized voice to do the work that BoardSource now wants to do.

Monika 

And I think so much of the conversation around leadership transitions is sort of what can the board do? Or what can the team do or what needs to happen to avoid, you know, a glass cliff. But I just want to pause to say, what is it that attracts us to come into organizations and choose where we're going to land. And it is that I mean, I remember my my board interview, which was on zoom back in our old zoom days, which, you know, still happen a little bit. And I could feel it when you're looking at a screen that, you know, with all these little boxes, and it looks different than a lot of boardrooms. But I've been in diverse boardrooms, what what, and there's something different that I saw in the boardroom on Zoom, and have experienced over the last year is that people truly respect each other. And that doesn't, it's not a polite, there's a love and respect for one another. But we get really deep in there, and we don't stop, right, we're willing to go in and we do it in ways that are expected of one another. And it leaves such space for me as the newer member in the room, the newer person in the room, because we're comfortable. So just you know, when we were we a couple weeks ago, as as you were rolling off of your three year term, and we were having our first meeting with Mark, who was going to be chair and Kevin Walker, who's going to be the Vice Chair, I was able to say, I'm just gonna name I'm worried about the gender change here. Right. I in all of my experience, when I have worked with women chairs, which is less than what I worked with, but you know, far fewer than the male male chairs I worked with, with the men, I ended up doing more work and more hand holding. And some of that's me stepping in. And some of that is just the weird dynamic. And we just had an open conversation with kind of, you know, really real could say the things that we needed to say, but we also there's a levity to it, we were making cracking jokes. And so, I mean, it's an expected conversation. And I cannot imagine having said that in other boardrooms that I had been in either serving on a board or, or being in this in the executive role. So that's, that's the big thing. And then I think the other thing that's really powerful about our board is that this work isn't done. This is our work every day in every meeting, and every boardroom conversation, and we make mistakes, right? So we are well intentioned and we can say we can shout off our numbers and all the resources that we put out and all the things that we do. And we're human beings and we you know, Julia, we you know, you and I and Mark, were working on officer slates for like a month and because we are a very lean board and we add paused recruitment during our transition. We're trying to figure out who has the the time and energy and willingness and is the right fit for our leadership. And we took slate of four men to our nominations governments committee and, and we had a board member who said, so I'm just wondering, just wondering what's going on? Because it was a moment where we just went, Oh, my gosh, we we worked on it for six weeks. And we didn't, we didn't catch it until we were literally walking into the committee conversation.

Julia 

Yeah, I think this is so important. Monika, what you're pointing to both, like the work is never done. Right. And that the expectation that those kinds of moments wouldn't surface is unrealistic. And so the question that I think then becomes as, like, what's the skill set that the the board and the board and executive and relationship need when those moments surface? So the fact that there was a board member who felt comfortable saying, Hey, I got a question, right, which is going back to like, putting the things on the table talking about the real things, right? Like, I don't know if I've ever shared this with you. But like, when we were opening up the search process, the board had a very frank conversation about what it mean, to have a board chair who was white, in this moment, we're opening up a search with this kind of desire and hopes for the next leader. And I have not been in many situations where that conversation can be held had so matter of factly with a multitude of perspectives, deep respect for the different points of view, and really then coming to a collective decision about like, what does it mean? Like, how do we operate? If I Julia am the board chair, and I'm white what else do we need in the board's process to account for that? So yeah, and maybe there's something in here for me personally, about the fact that I think we've let go of the stuff needing to be comfortable with like, we're there, we're not expecting it to be comfortable. Instead, we've become really familiar with some things sometimes being uncomfortable, and that is, for me, is such a better place to be.

Monika 

I love that you the way you just said that. Because yeah, I think about that a lot. We have one of our board members, Kyle Caldwell, who's the president of the Council Michigan Foundations will say we need a duty of discomfort and board conversations on race. And I think we hold that really clearly. Like we, we know we need to lean in. And we even will have moments in board meetings, because of all the roles that everyone around that table holds where someone will inevitably say, Wow, I've never had this conversation with my board, or I can't imagine having with my board or another board that I sit on. And then you know, thankfully, there are others who who do live in those boards and spaces. And so my hope, you know, again, sort of thinking about where we're going, collectively, is that so many times people get stuck in this work, we get we get stuck in this work. And if we can just sort of say, well, you gotta keep going, and you got to just it's gonna be uncomfortable. It's gonna keep being uncomfortable if we're being authentic and real about the work, and we're gonna keep pushing ourselves to do better, because we can always do better, and we're all learning and we're gonna be learning for the rest of our lives, then we just gotta get comfortable in the discomfort. So I appreciate you saying that Julia.

Julia 

Well you know I'm curious Monika, because this is not your first potential glass cliff experience. Knowing you and your leadership roles and so I'm wondering what's been different from your perspective in the executive seat, about this ongoing journey with the board of BoardSource? Like, what are you seeing.

Monika 

There is I mean, we we've referred to it a few times now. But the intentionality of years of work, to prepare the foundation or lay the foundation for a first person of color coming in, and that that commitment and intentionality is so authentic, that's really unique. Because it's not just a commitment to an idea or a mission of being, you know, focused on equity. It's almost, you know, for BoardSource, what strikes me is that it's almost a sacred journey for everyone in that room as individuals and then collectively, and that, that's just really powerful to walk into. And then there's some structural things that we've done that have been really neat. You know, we talked about I think getting passing on the transition committee. Our transition committee originally was set for two years, one year for search and one year for my first year, and it was loose. It was sort of we kind of built it as we went like what do we need in this particular meeting? What's happening was a source of support for me and we came towards the end of the year. And as we talked about, we're at this major inflection point in our change as an organization. And quite frankly, for most organizations, a leadership transition, particularly to when it's a leader of color, is also a big shift in the organization's work. And so we decided that oh we're getting the real change. This is like the messy, really hard change. So yeah, transition committee is gonna extend for another year, because transition is a multi year process. It's not a one and done. It's not even a two and done, which is what I think we thought when I got here, but we've given ourselves have flexibility to keep going. So that's really different. And I think just, you know, we've underscored it time and time again, but just the authenticity, of this board is really, really powerful. I can show up and sometimes I, I've said this to the board, and Julia said this too many times, like, I panic after a transition committee meetings are important. Like, I was too transparent, I was too honest, I shared everything that was going on far more than I have ever done in any other boardroom, with, particularly with my board, because of course, you know, you do have a role and I am the CEO, you are the board you review and and hire me and could fire me, you know, but that's just very unique. And it freaks me out every time to be honest, because I bring all the ghosts of my past board members in with me. But it's just incredible to have that. And again, it's one of those things where I think, if everyone had that, imagine what the sector could do. I do want to name one other thing that's unique about this transition, because I want to be transparent about BoardSource. We have MacKenzie Scott funding. And there is something that comes with that both in terms of the cushion of having that, that money. But there's an expansiveness and a possibility that sort of is in the air at BoardSource. And so through my year, I'm very aware that this is not any place that I've been in the space that I've been in before. Every other place, how do we keep the lights on? Or how do we do the next thing, you know? But here, it's like, yeah, we can imagine a new way of working and we can bring in the support that we need. There's just an energetic sort of psychological different space that we're all in having had that too. So maybe that was a lot to kind of hit on those different things. Julia, what were your lessons of this last year? And were there any surprises?

Julia 

Yeah, I love that question about surprises. And you and you and the board have been reflecting on this last year, including in our last board meeting. And so I would probably highlight, here's something that came up in that discussion, which is how hard organizational changes on the staff. I mean, change is just hard for all humans and all the ways that you've been alluding to, right. But the staff really experiences a harder, day to day change impact. It's their daily work lives. And in looking back on it, I think the board missed a moment to to communicate more directly or explicitly with the staff about the board's vision that was being shaped in the search process, in the conversations with you in the hiring that vision for the next chapter of BoardSource. You know, as you said that I think there was a tremendous amount of intentionality, including in the board after you had accepted the offer. But before you had started, the board went through this conversation and in June of last year, to prepare ourselves to be the board that we wanted to be to meet you in that relationship. And it was this catalytic conversation. But it was in the board meeting in Executive Session, the board set values and core principles like what would guide us through these first years of working with you. And we failed to turn around and communicate that to the staff. And so if the board was on this, you know, evolving journey, we weren't sharing enough of that back out to the staff so that we were giving them the understanding of where the board thought we were headed as a board and as an organization. And so I think there's something maybe to note here is that if the board in, you know, circumstances that don't involve a search kind of relies on the executive, to be the communicator between the board and the staff, when that executive is departing or has already left, that communication vehicle is gone. And so if the board is continuing to evolve, its thinking, the board then needs to communicate that directly to staff so that just personally as Julia, if I would go back and have a redo there in those months before you started, for the board to say to the staff, hey, here's where our thinking is continuing to evolve. And here's what's important to us about why change is the goal and the goal is change. I don't know if that resonates on your side as you think about it. Yeah.

Monika 

It does so much, because I wanted to also name that just as coming. And we talk, we're talking a lot about the board. But part of what has been really unique about my transition to BoardSource is the work that the staff was doing. So years of DEI work, and also group coaching for the senior leadership team, so that they were thinking about institution before their individual programs as a real game changer. And I think, had that also been infused with, here's what the board is thinking, here is the evolution of where we're going. That would have been really powerful. And I also want to name just because we're sitting in a different world. Now, a lot of that transition was happening deep in COVID. And everything was remote. And so there are a lot of things that we can say best practices, we wish we had done things differently. And I think there were things that could have been differently done differently. For sure. I would agree with everything you said, Julia. But I also think that, you know, the world has been through a lot in the last few years and BoardSource has been through a lot and individual team members have been through a lot. And so we just as we're looking back in time, I think it's hard for us to imagine that that that equation was like that was also part of the equation as you were trying to figure out how to you hire a new person and do all these things. And you're all remote and we get to sit at board source and say, Okay, here's what we would have done differently. And here's what we think would help the next organization or this would be a great board practice. So I want to also just normalize that piece of all of this conversation.

Julia 

Right? There's a yes and in all of this, like yes to that and here's some of the factors that were at play totally, totally.

Monika 

What have we not said today? What else do you think is, you know, just thinking about whether it's at the board level, or individually, or as you and me working together as chair and CEO, and friends. Anything else that you think you'd want to share with folks listening in today?

Julia 

You know, one thing that I might add, when I'm thinking about what, what I think we've both been highlighting about the sort of intentionality of relationship and the authenticity of relationship is that there are two qualities or maybe even competencies, I think the BoardSource board brought to its race equity work. That might be useful just to highlight for other boards, and one was this sort of culture of inquiry, that we're really curious about each other as people. And that's such a beautiful quality. I mean, curiosity is, is fun. It's a lovely stance, right? It's actually enjoyable. Even when you don't agree with the other person, if you're curious about where they're coming from, it's so much more fun. And it means that nobody needs to be right about something because you're just curious, right. And I think we've used that in the race equity conversations, like when things get like is when maybe I would couple that with the duty of discomfort is then bring some healthy curiosity at the same time, right, you're gonna be uncomfortable and curious. And that's a magic recipe. And the other thing is, maybe the other piece of that is being really open to being influenced by each other. So I've had so many experiences just personally at board meetings where I'm like, I'll put something out. I'm like, Oh, I think my perspective is something like this, or I'm holding this question. I wonder what it would look like if we did this. And then some other board member will come in with, from a totally different point of view. And what happens inside of me as a person, when I'm open to being influenced by that, that I mean, it's a gift to me. And I think it makes those moments of, you know, complicated conversations. Well, to come back to something you said, it can be joyful even to have these hard conversations. I don't know what comes up for you. If you think of things that other things you might highlight about our experience.

Monika 

I would say that there's just there is a what curiosity brings a playfulness to it. It's experimentation. And I think in the possibility of what's happening in the transformation across our sector. You know, we're all in this place. And we do this, but amongst ourselves, really, we don't want to make a mistake, you and I were always thinking like, what we're doing is so we want to make sure we think about the right structure or the right tool or the way that we interact or what we're setting for the board's experience or whatnot. And the real changes in the experimentation and the curiosity and the playfulness and the falling flat on our face and laughing about I mean, that's the other thing that's in our boardroom, our boardroom is very funny. Like in the tense moments when there is discomfort, like someone will crack a joke and it just, we don't all have to agree but we can sort of bring different sort of mindsets and tools and fun to the party, and then that moves those forwards. So that's what I would add, Julia did we did we meet our hopes and dreams from your perspective for this conversation? Is there anything on that that you would want to add? Or any final words?

Julia 

Well, it makes me think if we, if we were to sort of get up on the BoardSource learning lab moment now, like if there's one thing that we might say, like, what do we need to do at the in the sector to, to normalize and advance race equity work at the board level, I would come back to the this mantra that the board has adopted around like, talk about the real, I'll say stuff, talk about the real stuff out loud. And I would add with love, because my experience in this boardroom is that when we do that, when we can just talk about the real stuff out loud with love. When we name the systems that are always present in this country, in society, and in the boardroom, when we point to the systems and the impact that they might be having. We kind of carve out a space that, as you said, feels sacred, that allows us to see and feel how we can do this work together differently. So that would be my takeaway. What about you, Monika? If you were going to name one thing, what would you name?

Monika 

Oh, so beautiful. Thank you. Being one, it's just I mean, one, I just want to express like gratitude to you and to the board and our team and this community. For the journey like this, and being able to work with a board chair and a board and the way that we've worked and all the things that we just talked about, it's really healing for me personally. Because it's not always that way. And I also sort of honor and recognize that it's both incredible and a little heartbreaking that it's not the norm. And so I kind of hold that possibility and imagination of what our sector is going to be when we do lean deeper in to this work, and support one another and push each other a little bit. The nonprofit ecosystem is such an incredibly important part of our communities, and our country, and the world. But we can do better. And the more we can say it's possible to do better. I think that's that's what I'm sort of holding on to the imagination of all these like flowers sprouting up of laying these beautiful spaces for us to really meet the moments that we're in as a as communities and as country right now.

Julia 

I just want to say I appreciate you so much, and I'm so appreciative of this conversation. Thank you.

Monika 

Thank you, I love I love that we got to do this together.

Nancy (Host) 

A huge thank you to Monika and Julia for inviting us into your journeys at BoardSource. Painting a vibrant picture of what's possible, and modeling the transparency and authenticity that we need to continue advancing race equity work at the board level. You can find more information on this episode, including guest bios, shownotes and additional resources at thegivingpractice.org And if you have a topic that you think philanthropy should be talking about more, let us know by emailing hello@the givingpractice.org. This podcast was written and produced by Aya Tsuruta and Emily Daman with audio engineering and editing support by Podfly and graphic design by Asha Hossain. A special thanks to our Philanthropy Northwest and Giving Practice teams for their thought partnership and the Ford Foundation for making this project possible. I'm Nancy Sanabria, and we'll see you next time.