Katie Hong, Lisa McGill, Abby Sarmac and Lalitha Vaidyanathan

Abby 

I mean, this is what happens, right? It's feeling stuck in equity work, feeling stuck with your teenager's feelings that whenever you're feeling stuck, just reach out to your people. And they'll show you the way.

Lisa 

Right, because either they've been through it

Abby 

Right!

Lisa 

Or they feel stuck too and you're like, what? I'm not alone.

Abby 

All right, that's good too.

Lisa 

 My community, we're right here.

Nancy (Host) 

From The Giving Practice at Philanthropy Northwest, this is "Can we talk about..?" a project to normalize the messiness of leading for racial equity in philanthropy and reflect on what it takes to create lasting transformation. This season, we've had the privilege of hearing from 18 incredible leaders, and their experiences working to advance racial equity at the board level. As we come to the end of our season, we're excited to share this one final episode with you, featuring a conversation between four of our very own TGP senior advisors, Katie Hong, Lisa McGill, Abby Sarmac and Lalitha Vaidyanathan. Together, they reflect on our guest's stories and share their perspectives and advice based on their experiences as consultants supporting a diversity of philanthropy boards and leaders along their racial equity journeys. Without further ado, let's dive in.

Katie 

Hi, it's so exciting to see you all here. I'm so excited that we get to be in this space together. And before we go around and do our intros, I thought I'd pause and give a quick overview of TGP for our listeners, who may not be as familiar with us. So TGP short for The Giving Practice. It's the national consultancy of Philanthropy Northwest. And as a group, we've provided services across strategy, facilitation and organizational development for over two decades now. And in the last decade, we've been super intentional about increasing our efforts to support clients along their racial equity journeys. This includes nearly 10 years of facilitating peer cohorts, for CEOs and trustees to come together and wrestle with leadership dilemmas on issues like race and inclusion and power, which is, in fact, what largely inspired this podcast. So I'm looking forward to our reflections into this discussion. But before we dive in, I'd love to start by introducing ourselves with our full name, the kind of work we've been doing to support philanthropic organizations to advance racial equity, and to say a little bit about why we're personally motivated to do this work. And since I've been talking already, and I want to introduce myself to our audience, I'll go first. My name is Katie Hong, I use she/her pronouns. And for the audience listening in, I want to let you know that I'm playing a dual role this afternoon of both facilitating this conversation, as well as chiming in to add what I've seen and experienced. I was born in South Korea and immigrated to the United States when I was eight years old. So among my many identities, I identify as an immigrant, as a Korean American, Asian American woman, woman of color. I've spent 20 plus years supporting efforts to advance equitable transformation at the personal, institutional and system levels. I do this work because I want everyone not just some of us to be free. And by that, I mean having the support and opportunity to survive and to thrive. And as an immigrant and a woman of color, I've come to realize that it's not an accident that some people have these opportunities and others don't. So I'm focused and motivated to support transformation at the multiple levels. So that as I said, all of us could be supported to live with dignity and freedom. And my journey, my own personal and professional journey has been to learn and to figure out how I could best support that what's my unique role in the ecosystem and to advance equity and justice. And I've come to realize how much I love being a facilitator, a coach, a strategic thought partner, which is why I'm now focused on consulting and coaching leaders who are committed to advancing equity and justice in the world. So with that, Abby, I'll pass it off to you. Tell us about you.

Abby 

Thanks, Katie. Can I just cut and paste what you said? Nevermind. Okay, this is Abigail Sarmac. I'm also known as Abby, she/her pronouns. I am first generation born in the United States of an also an immigrant family, like Katie's. I'm, uh, you can't see me actually, but I'm a short woman of Filipino descent. Although short is relative. I'm a whopping four foot 11 and the tallest woman in my family. Thank you very much. Let's see what other things I'm also a wife and a partner. I I'm and a mother. I'm a mother of two teenagers. And let's see, experience and work. So I started working in philanthropy, primarily with the private family foundation. And since then I've as staff as program staff. And I've since then also worked with, you know, primarily private foundations, family foundations, multigenerational family boards, individuals, I'm also expanding into work with networks and collaboratives, of of philanthropy, and mission driven organizations interested in impact, and that link with equity is strong as well. I'm very interested in power shifting, power sharing. In this work, practically, what that means is I'm working with individuals, teams, organizations on strategy and culture on hosting equity conversations, governance. But really, to be honest, I feel like often the primary thing I'm doing is helping to facilitate host a really hold space for conversation hold space for people to be real with each other. And that's where I think most of the magic happens in terms of what I do. So my motivation. What really, I think brings me to this work is, well, I'm actually relatively new to it, right. So my racial equity journey is pretty new, I really only took that red pill in 2019. So I couldn't unsee what our inequitable systems are doing. They're undermining if not actively killing people with less power in the system. And that meant people like me, that meant people like my sons, and I can't not do something about it. So that's why I'm here.

Lalitha 

Hello, it's so great to be here. I'm Lalitha Vaidyanathan. And I use she her pronouns I identify racially as a South Asian woman, I also identify as an immigrant. And then as an American woman of color. My work. So far, I'm a career consultant, I would say working on social impact strategy. More recently, almost all of my work is around race equity. And that looks like strategy development for race equity, implementation, raising consciousness around it, operationalizing equity, doing org development work, executive coaching, and so on. I work with boards and leadership in almost actually in 100% of my work. So examples include working with executive teams on understanding what it means to be accountable for advancing race equity in in organizations, working with leadership and boards on power and what it means to hold power, how that shows up for people with different identities, and then understanding, you know, adaptive technical ways to address challenges and so on and so forth. The reason I do this work, which is always an interesting thing to think about, and rethink about, because I find that it's changed over my life. So I you know, as I mentioned, I'm an immigrant. So I came to this country as an adult to the age of 28. And as an immigrant, I think many of us who are immigrants can use it may or may not have this experience, but you see yourself as a visitor on someone else's land. And as a visitor on someone else's land, your role is simply to adapt to the norms of your host country. And you spend an I spent, I'll speak for myself a long time just figuring out what those norms were and how I adapt to them. And it was only you know, I kind of roughly find it when I look back at my life in the US, you know, almost 30 years now, kind of divided equally into the first half which is like before racial equity. I call it my BRE era after racial equity, my ARE era you know, once once you come to understand how once I came to understand how there was systems that were holding in place in equities, right, whether it's individual but it's cultural, whether it's institutional, that these things were kind of working in concert to hold inequities in place and it you know, results I think, Abby as you said, four ways in which your life you know, rolls out and the things that you experience in life personally and it certainly you know, in the work that I was doing in social impact, you know, I do work in health care or education or economic development but you know, like you you rise up one level in you look at the big picture, you're talking about the same people except you're looking at it through health lens or education lens. So clearly there was something else going on that was holding all this in place and once you start to see once I started to see what those systemic factors were, you cannot unsee it and so if I'm you know it which I am going to continue to dedicate my life to doing work around social impact. I can't really do it without understanding race equity and really getting a grip on like how that's resulting in this disparities and what you do about it. So that's where I find myself in still very much on my own journey and just grateful to be in conversations like this.

Lisa 

So hi, everyone, I hope that you're doing well. I'm Lisa McGill, I am an African American woman from the Chicago area, proud descendant of black folk from the American South. And so you can always hear it in my voice. I always call Chicago up south and I hang on to it fiercely. So, you know, I've been trying to think about why I do this work. And I, I've always just, I think I come from a historically resilient community. And so I've always seen the joy in it, the resilience, the just the people who are mine, right. And so it has just sort of created a lifelong commitment so that everyone has access and opportunity. So by academic training, I actually focused on ethnic communities and immigrant communities. But for me, it was always in relation to, to African American communities to white ethnic communities that have been here for a bit and like, What is that stuff sort of going on, so that everyone has access to opportunity? So I think as it relates to philanthropy, that became a way for me to sort of be a strategist around it. So it wasn't just this academic thing that was on the shelf. But could I use some of what I kind of knew what I had sort of as lived experience, from academic studies to actually do something, right? And like, how do you bring this history forward, to make it work out, the last thing I'll offer is that I am a product of people putting time and energy into access and opportunity, whether it's pipeline program, leadership program, my mother had me in every program. And so one of those things for me, is to sort of pay it forward. And so I tried to with my philanthropy work, I do a lot of work around strategy and strategic planning lately, you know, I did a ton of work around youth transitioning from adulthood. And a lot of the work now was around infrastructure. Because as things shift, and people change, I think those infrastructure groups and network are really the places that keep the momentum going, as other people sort of decide on the next ice cream flavor or whatever.

Katie 

Thank you, wow. I'm just every time I'm in a room with you, fabulous, amazing women, there's just so much wisdom here. And so I feel like we're gonna have a really good conversation. And I imagine that we're only going to just scratch the surface. But, Lisa, I really appreciate you bringing in, right like adding, like expanding the time horizon to just remind all of us that we're not just product of just like us, but that we are part of community and that I am part of a lineage of people who have come before us and people who will come after us. So I think the first question I would love to ask to get all of us thinking about is, where are we today? You know, so the specific question is across the four of us in the rest of our TGP colleagues, we work with a diversity of foundations and philanthropy serving organizations and collaboratives across the country, and even some globally. And I'm curious, what's our sense of where are we as a philanthropic sector in the journey towards racial equity? So where have we been? And where is our sector headed? And so Lisa I'd love to come back to you and ask you like, what's your sense of where we are in the, in the journey?

Lisa 

So when I think about where we have been, I think it really sort of informs and both inspires where we're going. So you know, I refer to them as the OGs. Which is probably not politically correct. So I'll say the powerhouses. But really sort of like the groups that really paved the way for why we're thinking about racial equity and racial justice now. So at the Hispanics in Philanthropy, APIP, Native Americans in Philanthropy. And, you know, they sort of started off at Council on Foundations, thinking, okay, it's not that many of us here. How do we sort of build diversity in leadership in the philanthropic sector, and you think about where they started and what they're doing now in terms of advocacy and policy and moving monies. They really have sort of created a space where folks like, like me, even 20 years ago, could come and say, Hey, there's something here. I want to be a part of this. And you know, they're, they're approaching it from different places, in terms of where we are now. We're definitely at an inflection point, like, Katie, I'll tell you, I'm not quite sure where we are now. So you know, there was the rah rah around racial justice, which was important. But I always sort of worry about the rah rah, right? Because I am not into the performative stuff. And so everyone was trying to do it, some people were not doing it well. And I think that we're starting to sort of see that now, as the flavor of the month is changing a little bit, people are retreating a little bit. So I definitely think that we're at an inflection point, the last thing I'll say is that the beauty of it is infrastructure. So we still have ABFE around, you know, we still have HIP around, we still have, you know, like, all of these organizations that are around that, irrespective of where philanthropy takes us at this immediate moment, they will be around making the way PRE is another one thinking about how do you do base building, and bringing our attention always to what sort of matters in terms of the philanthropic sector.

Lalitha 

Just a plus one, everything that Lisa said that, you know, giving just huge kudos to people who started this work and continue to push it on. And I see the philanthropic field as one having great opportunity to move further. You know, so I think the tremendous work that's already happened has brought us to this point, and we have a long way to go. And you know, so if you look at sort of measures, like diversity within the philanthropic field, whether it's on boards, executive leadership CEOs, you know, it's kind of still 80%, more or more white, you know, amount of resources going to communities that are organizations that are led by working in communities, still, the data is even hard to come by. So I see a field with tremendous opportunity in its future. And I think, to me, boards in foundations hold such a huge role in many foundations. And, you know, we all often we think about foundations, think about the largest ones, but most foundations in the US actually, on the smaller side, right, they're family foundations, and most in most of those boards are still making grant making decisions, right. And so where money goes and how it's wielded, and how it's used for impact, largely, to me is still decided by boards. So if you think if I think about the single point of greatest leverage, you know, to move and make progress on equity, it lies within boards. And that's why it's an area that I'm tremendously interested in. And I'm glad TGP is, you know, kind of working on and thinking actively about. So it's a place of great opportunity. And I truly believe that we've built much that we can continue to build on.

Katie 

Yeah, just a really powerful reminder that there was a before that we stand on the, you know, on the foundation that others before us have built. And I agree. I mean, I just in my own experience with philanthropy, having come into it, you know, that 20 years ago, initially, when I started hardly, you know, besides the OG, like, there was a small group of people who were really advancing this, but it was, it was still largely colorblind, and people's language was still universal, and we weren't really talking about it. And I do think that there has been progress. But to Lilitha to your point, there's still so much more to be done. So super excited. Okay. Well, I would love to now talk about some of our own insights that we've gotten from as we've listened alongside the speakers of the first season of the podcast, "Can we talk about..?" specifically it's been, you know, personally, for me really great to hear stories, lessons learned, call to action for leaders by leaders. And I've really appreciated the reminder that this journey is messy, that it's not linear, and that it takes time to create lasting change. So Abby, let me go to you first, as you think about what you've heard from the guests stories, what is stories of success have in common and what themes surfaced for you across our guest stories that you really want to lift up for this conversation?

Abby 

Yeah, no, I also really enjoyed the season. Actually, the listening to all of these leaders? Well, first of all, it just amazing that we had a whole series focused on governance and on boards and like Lalita was saying, right, that's such a bastion of power and unshifted power in a way so that's really I think, was great to have that as a real focus to be talking to you and not just kind of generally but really getting into the stories behind folks journeys. So I really thought that that was it was really inspiring, you know that it's a back to Lisa's point, right? It's it's we're not alone in this and we've come up really long way, and there are folks alongside us, right, who have been doing this for a long time. And we can learn so much from them. I think one of the big themes that I felt listening to, to all of our guests were, I guess, there were three themes that I saw, but they were all kind of within the, the concept of intercultural blind spots. And I'm kind of laughing at seeing Lisa's face here, because she's smiling, because I'm gone right back to like, where all this started and multicultural and intercultural. And that, again, pendulum swings. But it was a theme I saw, right that in a way, we have blind spots, because we are attempting to communicate and connect across cultures, and specifically the cultures talked about in the podcasts were around, you know, dominant culture versus non dominant culture, right. And, in this specific, I saw three very clear themes around intercultural blind spots on leadership, like who is a leader who's viewed as a leader? What do leaders need an intercultural blind spot around time, urgency versus slowness? And even the word slowness? Right, the pushback on you know, what, maybe some on one culture is slow, is actually another culture's just right. So, that piece and then and then finally, I know we had, and we, we've talked about this a lot, actually, the practice, when thinking about how to really operationalize equity, there's a real intercultural blind spot around operations, and around how we function as foundations and as people and again, norms, as Lalitha was mentioning, right, and so some examples there that we may get into, like, you know, we have a norm of a conflict of interest policy. But in fact, that can be weaponized in small, smaller communities and rural areas that have fewer people that need to have three or four roles, public and private. That's just how life is thank you very much. So don't be anyway, we can get into some of those details. But those intercultural blind spots were things that I found very interesting, as I listened to our board leaders talk about their experiences.

Lisa 

One thing that stuck out for me is that things change at the speed of trust. And so part of it is sort of building relationships, building trust among stakeholders, whether it's, you know, fellow board members, or the executive team, in order to really tackle some of those hard issues. The other thing that stands out for me is that it's okay to test and innovate, like, a lot of folks sometimes have a fear around making mistakes, when you sort of take on dealing with racial injustices and you decide we're going to employ a racial equity framework. And what stood out for me is just the folks who were like, okay, we got to do something, you know, we can innovate here, it's okay to do so without this fear around making mistakes, and that we're sort of all in this together all hands on deck. And I really appreciated that as well.

Katie 

Yeah that there is no perfect like, it's also I think what you just said is just this reminder, like, this is not a technical challenge. It's really an adaptive challenge. And there is no one perfect solution.

Lisa 

And if there were a perfect solution, we would have solved racism already, right? But humans come in, you come here with biases. And so it's just the reality of what the world is, it doesn't mean that you don't have a vision to eradicate it. But you know, at the end of the day, new humans are still being born. And we all come in with our with our junk.

Katie 

Yeah, yeah.

Lalitha 

Yeah, there was so many themes, because they were all such fantastic episodes. So I'll just pick one that kind of jumped out to me. And that is, you know, many of the speakers talked about how diversity on boards were critical, right? So while it's not the end, because diversity doesn't, it doesn't mean that you have equity, it's but it is a leading it is a very important leading indicator, right of whether you can actually move in that direction. But in many of the episodes, they then would say like, just because the people around the table change, it doesn't mean the dynamics change, right? You need to couple that with changes in cultural practices and governance practices in policies, but for that diversity of voices can actually have value and can all be heard. So I thought, you know, there was some examples that they gave that, you know, in my own practice I've seen and I'm fascinated by and, you know, I'm trying to do more and more work around this. How do you institutionalize this? Right? So if you have some people who have brought it up and you have you know, fearless leaders, right, including the ones we heard from all the folks that you talked about Lisa have been doing this work for a long time. You know, they get tired they move on, or you know, the fearless Chair of the Board who starts this work like moves on like the work shouldn't die, right? How do you actually build this into organizations? Is, is a question that I'm fascinated by and think a lot about and do work in. And some examples that came out from the podcast that I kind of wrote down and said, like, wow, these are great ideas, you know, so there was one, where they talked about changing bylaws, you know, so bylaws always have qualifications, right for board members, that board members should have this quality, that characteristic, and so on, and so forth. So you can actually change that to say boards should have that we would like our board members to have commitment to race equity, to have lived experience, those things that you want to lift up that, you know, lead to greater work around equity in an organization. And you can enshrine that in your bylaws, so that every new board member, you now recruit from now going forward, actually have those characteristics, right. So that is a super powerful way, you know, to bring it in and keep it in an organization in an ongoing way. The other one that, you know, multiple folks talked about were sort of these practices. So I think, you know, multiple of us when we're introducing ourselves talked about how these systems that hold disparities in place. And those systems, you know, have manifestations in the way of sort of policy and practices. But there's also cultural practices. So if you look at how, you know, many boards operative in a simple example, is how we make decisions on boards. So there's something called Robert's Rules of Order, which generally tends to is the way in which we use to make decisions. And it's majority rule, right, the majority rule basically, is power, voting power. And what we're trying to do here is actually shift power. And if you don't shift those ways in which we make decisions, ways in which we have conversations, you're not going to shift power, and equity is not going to happen. And the voices you brought around the table are not going to get heard, right. So the some of the examples that folks were talking about, you know, that shift from using majority voting to things like Fist of Five, where you can kind of like, see around the room, you know, how people are feeling about an issue, and then actually ask questions, but why are you at three? Like, why are you a two? Why are you a five? Right? And that, then is what engaging multiple perspectives. So when you when you talk about creating a culture of inclusion and belonging, what you're trying to do is engage multiple perspectives and center the voices of people who are most impacted? And how do you do that, if you're making decisions by majority voting, you can't, right? So you need to change those practices so that you can actually that those voices can be heard and can actually impact the work you actually do. So that was like one example that I picked up. But there were many other examples that, you know, I think we encourage people to listen to all the podcasts, because many other great examples of how they shifted practice. But I think just, you know, kind of in summary, it's important to have diversity on boards. And it's equally important to change culture practices, governance policies, so that you can institutionalize, and it stays beyond the people around the table.

Lisa 

I just want to weigh in on the making sure that you have diversity on boards, because you want to make sure that it's not just like one person there as a token. So you know, if there's a way to think about, you know, either that person either has to have a really big personality, sort of like Jackie Robinson style, okay, I know when I'm taking on this is my role here, in which I don't know, doesn't seem really fair to me, or you need to make sure that there are other people there who are with that person, maybe you onboard people at the same time. So there's a little bit of a critical mass, where that person isn't sort of taking on the weight of being the person who's always supposed to bring up diversity. And I've been in that space where you're like, I'm the only person, I'm the only black woman. All right, no one else is saying it. So I have to and, you know, that's a bit of a heartburn. And so you know, you want to make sure that you do have diversity in leadership, but also start thinking about other ways to create a pipeline for bringing on diverse leadership too.

Katie 

Yeah, that's such an important point. I'm so glad we're talking about that one. Because sometimes when we talk about diversity, equity, inclusion, justice work, people can say, well, yeah, diversity matters. And it's not enough so that sometimes I think people, like I think it's important to say it's true, it's not sufficient, but it is absolutely important, because who's around the table really matters. And even in preparing for this conversation, we talked about the magic 30%. There's something seems to be like 30% when 30% of any kind of container changes, it seems to be a kind of the tipping point that really says like.

Lisa 

We need to find a citation for that. So it doesn't become urban legend.

Katie 

Yeah, I know.

Abby 

Well, I think that's what I was gonna say. I think that's something actually that we may have created. It was a spectrum. We actually created a spectrum here and it was pulled from I think all of our experiences of being the only, right, so no onlys is one piece. And in the middle, really, for example, when developing peer cohorts or when developing, you know, thinking about diversity in a room and have diversity on a board, like you mentioned, 30% is actually a minimum that I kind of have right in mind, like, okay, you know, that's the balance, minimum that I would be looking for, but and then referencing that 60% in a way to sustain. Right. So yeah, that's felt like a spectrum that we maybe have come up with. Those are some, you know off the cuff, little things we use.

Lalitha 

I really liked it, I'm using it, I'm using it. Yeah. Several of the podcasts also, too, I mean, I think like representation even has to be meaningful, right. And meaningful representation really, is one that represents the communities that you're working in. So if your communities are, you know, whatever, you know, X percent, Latino, then like that is should be our expectation of what the board sides not the one person, it's actually that one that mirrors the communities that you're working in. So I'd say maybe 60% is minimum.

Abby 

It's all contextual. It's all contextual.

Katie 

I want to add on to something that Lisa said, which is, you know, everything moving at the speed of trust, and relationships, so for sure, the num, like diversity matters, who's around the table matters. But I think he also in preparing for this call we talked about there may be different windows of opportunity. And sometimes you don't always know what that is. So sometimes it is led, the push for racial equity and justice and inclusion is led by the board themselves. Sometimes it's led or pushed by the staff. Sometimes it's by community members, grantees, like people who you have relationships with, sometimes I've seen examples of where board members are influenced by other board members, you know, or what's happening in the broader community. And so, I do think that relationships, and us proximity, people learning about each other, right at the different levels, like that really matters for this work. And I think it matters because of some of the themes that you all raise, which is that this work isn't just at one level, it's actually at the different levels like this is about personal level, our own biases, our own beliefs, you know, Abby, you brought up like, just even interrogating who's a leader? What do we think of when we think of a leader? You know, what's our sense of time? You know, how do we how do we and just what's our own kind of lived experience, how we understand it, what's our comfort level with discomfort, or leaning into conflict was another thing that came up? And that it you know, I remember, distinctly right, in the early days, when we started pushing some of this work in my organization around racial equity. Sometimes people feel like, okay, the solution is out there. It's about changing policies and practices and grantmaking. But people were like, but it's not really about the inner work. Like that's our own work, you know, and I think I think we've now the sector and all of us have gotten smarter that it's actually a both and that it is about personal transformation, the interpersonal connections, and then but it that it is also about practices and policy. So Lalitha, I loved all the examples that you brought up around, how do you sustain this work? How do you look at practices? Yep, the numbers and who's around the table matters? But what kind of culture are we creating? What's the sense of inclusion and belonging? And how do we, you know, really think about norms and practices and who's being centered and who's not. So all of that work It seems really important.

Lisa 

I think another thing when you think about leadership is, you know, with the assumption that everyone who works for you now will not be working for you in the next five to seven years. How do you support them in terms of how they're thinking about racial equity, so that it helps the field in assuming that, you know, they stay in the philanthropic sector, so that you are building leaders for the field? And quite frankly, if you're going to the public sector, even better, right? Like how do you think about what your role is, as a board as a leader, that really sort of impacts the field beyond your organization?

Abby 

I love that. So one of the pieces that I loved because I have to admit a lot of what what really lights me up about this work is the personal and interpersonal side. And what that's bringing up for me, Lisa is around, you know, that this work is, you know, whether it's strategy, whether it's governance, whether it's facilitation, everyone needs cultural work, right? Everyone needs in this so that you know, then then that's personal and, and interpersonal, right. So, no matter where they go, you know, they are going to be influenced by the culture and the opening that you have supported and promoted. One of the things are a couple of the things that I loved from the podcast around these lines was, I think it was the Beth Macaw and Dilcia's conversation, I think Beth had mentioned how kind of, you know, the cultural piece of resisting urgency and slowing down. Because the most transformative moments when we're when you got the feels, right, when you got the feelings in the room, things that usually professional you try and keep at bay. But it was, I think it was Beth mentioned, really, it's needing to move those feelings from, you know, your your head, like you go into racial equity, because you're supposed to do it, you need to do it. But it's in your heart, that you begin to feel it, it gets very scary. You need to pause, calm down, but then moving those feelings to then your hands, what are you going to do with those feelings? Right, so moving those feelings from your head to your heart to your hands. I loved that image. And that that idea Because that often I think is at least how I go into the work is connecting, first, being able to be vulnerable and have those kinds of conversations that bring up feelings, but then moving that to action. Moving that to operationalization. Moving that to what we've talked about, because that, I mean, when we talked about what brought us, you know what, and what kept us in this work. A lot of that was because we came from that we have sense, this, we feel it, we see it in our own communities and need to do something about it. So that was something that really resonated.

Katie 

I'm so glad you brought you brought that up, because one of the points that I really walked away in listening to the podcast was just this really powerful point that all of us are hurt by white supremacy and by racial inequity, you know, that like, and I think that specific podcast with Beth McCaw that you were talking about, in her conversation with LeAnne really drove home the point that one of the most insidious ways that white supremacy hurts us is the disconnection. You know, it's like how we have to literally disconnect from our bodies, and for what it means to be a human being. And just the process and the act of like being in this work, the healing work, right to be connected again, to each other, to ourselves and with each other. I just really drove home the point that this we're doing this work, because it benefits all of us, it really reminded me of John Powell, when he talks about targeted universalism and the whole curbside effect that it was, you know, when we created the curbs and the sidewalks, it wasn't just benefiting people with disabilities, but it benefited everybody, anybody who right like when I had babies, and I was pushing them along, like that totally helped me out or, or Heather McGee and her book on the Sum of Us just this powerful reminder that we're not doing this work just for people who are marginalized, or who have been furthist from opportunity. This is really for all of us.

Lisa 

So it's as you say that I'm I'm smiling, because I remember when, with the death of George Floyd, I would get text messages or emails from colleagues like, sort of how are you dealing with it? And I was like, did a memo go out to like all the non black people to ask me about it? Because I was thinking, how am I doing? This, this happened to all of us. So I appreciate the empathy. But really, this is something that we all have to grapple with. And so as you were saying that you were making me think like, once we understand that racial equity benefits all of us, you know, we want the same things for our families, for our kids, for our parents, then I think that people won't see it as something that you know, sort of maybe problematic, or maybe Oh, it's just important to folks of color, because really, it does take all of us to make this happen.

Katie 

Well, I would love to ask a question. Another question. You know, because we've been talking about like all the not best practices, but common themes, right in doing this work, but I'm curious from where your own personal experience, where are the barriers, like where do you feel like people get stuck? And if you were to offer one piece of advice for people who feel stuck in doing this work? What do you want to say to our listeners who want to really benefit from some of what we've seen in the field?

Lisa 

I haven't answer but I feel like I'm gonna disagree with Abby. But I don't know if it's a disagree. So it's a it's a both and

Abby 

That's fair. Go ahead.

Lisa 

So it maybe it's the Chicago MBA. I think that people get stuck in their feelings and feelings are good, but they get stuck there. And one of the things that I try to have clients do is like feelings are good. However, this ain't about you. So at some point, you need to move from your feeling to what does this have to do with the communities where monies need to be moved there, right. So I think the awareness is good. But the aware, actually, Abby, as you said, the awareness needs to move to action. And sometimes, especially with board and leadership, when we start to focus a lot on internal operations, we get like stuck there for years, and I've seen it through strategic planning processes, where at some point, I'm like, okay, we need to move some money out the door. So we need phase this, we need to whatever, but we have gotten into analysis paralysis, where we're really not using philanthropy in service of the communities that we're talking about. And so at some point, someone needs to call it. And I think that's the particular role that philanthropy consultants can play. Yeah, if they're from Chicago, that was a joke.

Abby 

I cannot agree with you. I guess. Don't worry, Lisa, I could not agree with you more that that really was yes, about. It's really about balance, right? I mean, you we are not, we are not just feeling creatures, we are not just thinking rational creatures, we are not just acting creatures, so you need to anyway, we cycle through all of that every single day, and is just not putting up a front to say that we are only rational, and we are only going to be doing the things that are objective and thinking like, you know, feelings or data too.

Katie 

I think both of you, yeah, both of you are pointing out that we're having this conversation in our roles. You know, so if you're a member of a board of a foundation, like you're there, not just as like an individual, you're there for in the role of governing an institution whose function is to give out grants and give out money in order to benefit the whole community. So I think it's a really powerful reminder that like, yep, we're people. And at the end of the day, we're also here to do a thing. And so let's, let's actually focus on that.

Abby 

On doing the thing. Yep.

Lalitha 

A couple of other things that come to my mind. And I think about stuckness, I think one is the characteristics of white supremacy of whiteness, are a ways of operating that we've all learned over time. And that's, you know, applicable, whether you're white or people of color, I think it's just ways in which we're trained to think so the sense of urgency for getting things done thinking about things that sort of either or, you know, all these ways of being that has been, we've just kind of grown up with and have been told are the right ways to work, can really stand in the way of doing real deep meaningful equity work, because you have just structurally right foundation's have to give out a certain amount of money every year, right? And there's always this rush in Q4 to get money out the door, you know, so we want to make sure that philanthropic dollars are going out and going out in large amounts, and how can we do it in ways that don't kind of like get stuck in these practices that we've kind of come to believe are important, you know, so I think that's one so decentering whiteness can, you know, I think people always can see how that's getting in the way. And often it's very hard to decenter, you know, the other one, I think really, like when it comes down to it, you have to be able to shift power. And that I think, you know, is to say it's hard is a huge understatement. So I think you know, it's very common in philanthropy to say that people who are affected by a problem impacted communities have the answers. And yet, in what percentage of time do we actually have them make grant making decisions? Very, very few, right? So when there are certain beliefs that we espouse, but that means ceding power, you know, ceding power over and control over how resources are distributed to communities don't happen, right? It doesn't follow that rhetoric that we often espouse, you know, so I think those when it actually comes down to it, how much power we were willing to share and how and with whom, I think can be big, big barriers.

Katie 

Well, that's good advice. So again, like, remember our roles, let's not get paralyzed by analysis, but actually think about our think about action and decentering whiteness, thinking about shifting power.

Lisa 

So this is I'm trying to sort of figure out how to articulate this. I think that one of the mistakes that we often make as people who are sort of committed to racial equity is that we use or we say whiteness as like one thing versus it being a lot of different things and a lot of different contexts and a lot of different regions in the United States. So like, white culture in the, in the south, for example, may be very relational, white culture in the Midwest may be very barn raising, like, I don't know. And then you have sort of these different ethnic types of white culture that we never really unpack. So I just want to make sure that we are careful as we are saying things or doing these kind of these big catch alls, that we are intentional around what we're saying to and what we're sort of how we're sort of relaying what white culture is, because it means a lot of different things. I think there is in the majority American culture, but I don't know if it's always sort of based on whiteness.

Abby 

I actually love that point, in part, because communities of color also are very different. Even, you know, Asians are not all the same, right? The there are, every culture on Earth is, is diverse, right and have have their own cultural histories. And anyway, it's complicated and beautiful.

Lalitha 

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess, Katie, you would also ask, like, what would we advise people? You know, like, what's one thing that we would say, you know, to folks who who kind of see these challenges, right is maybe an obvious thing, but it is like, it's how we show up and what in how we are state of being matters a lot. You know, so while I think race change in race, equity doesn't happen in the way often that we measure impact in the social sector, ie by percentage increases, you know, etc. It actually happens in the small actions in ways in which we decenter to however it is that we define whiteness, you know, the ways in which we decenter them in our daily actions and interactions to create inclusion and belonging actually matters a lot. And that may seem really small, and you may not see that indirect impact right now. But those are the ways in which you actually start to shift culture. That's a way in which you start to shift the personal interpersonal elements of systemic racism, and those things really matter. So. So I think that's what kind of working with boards and leadership, it's important for how people show up in the little actions matter.

Katie 

Yeah, yeah. Lalitha, what you just said, reminds me of Adrian Marie Brown in Emergent Strategy where she talks about fractals and small is all like, so again, it really speaks to, yeah, what's the change that's needed at the multiple levels in order to advance what you most care about? So I'd love to ask you to answer one of these two questions. So either what's giving you hope about where we are, and today and moving forward? Or what's one thing you want to normalize about this work?

Abby 

I think maybe, maybe it's because I'm constantly in this busy, busy, busy mode, right? Like, I would love to normalize. Again, this thing that's come up this idea that these kinds of conversations, take the time that they need. And, you know, it's I'm looking at you, Lisa, you know, you take action when you need to take action, but you also pause when you need to pause, and kind of just using the guidance of your relationships, and trust with your team, your board, your staff, to guide you. Right, it feels like the most successful experiences that I've been engaged in are where folks took the temperature from themselves in their communities, as opposed to just like, you know, taking the temperature from what some, you know, Harvard Business Review, sorry, nothing against the Harvard Business Review. But looking at you, Lisa, and maybe some Harvard relationships here. But um, you know, kind of trusting in the time that it takes there is another tool that we have found really useful. And in fact, I think that there's an another podcast on it around Theory U. And just, you know, this idea of there is a every engagement is going to start at one end and go into the bottom of U and then come out the other end, and that U in the bottom is the messiness and the murkiness and you can't, everyone wants to jump across to the other side to just the place where it's clean and clear. And I have my strategy and I have my relationships, check, check, check, and it never works out that way. At least not the most transformative and sustainable processes never work that way. You need the U for your clarity, and, and that just takes time, you know? So I would normalize that I would normalize this. Yes, the challenges are urgent and yes, resources need to get to where they need to go. And in order to really do that, and bring your people along with you. You gotta also love the pause, I think Dilcia again, such a great quote that she, from her section or of the podcast around, you know, pause implies stopping. But is the work really stopping? When you pause? You know, again, it's just an another cultural rhythm. Maybe that's just what your system needs? I would normalize that.

Katie 

Yeah, I love that.

Lalitha 

I think for me, you know, what, what gives me hope is that, you know, when you do see these bright spots, so I think all the podcast speakers that we've had in this season are just examples of courageous people who are doing this work both BIPOC and white folks, you know, and that's just within our own community. And that I think, Lisa, you mentioned this at the beginning where these you didn't you didn't use the word trance, I can't remember the words that you use, it was, you know, it was really popular at one point, and then kind of like, there's a waning of interest, but immaterial of where in that cycle we are, there are people who continue to do the work, you know, and when you come in contact with them, it just it's inspiring. It's, you know, gives you hope that this work will continue. I will say the other thing that gives me a lot of hope is like young people. There's something about the India DNA, like this is how they all think they're like equity of course, we have to do. Like, is that even a question? When suddenly, the young generation I think gives me hope that this will be more normal, this will not be an if. But just how do we learn to do this better, and become better at it, because as we've all said, it's not there's no technical solutions to this. It's hugely adaptive. And it's the work of multiple generations in order to really get us to a place where the arc really bends towards justice. So I have hope in young people.

Lisa 

So for me the hope is, I've seen this moment before, right of retreating. But I also know sort of back to the point around those groups that are always having conversations, always keeping this at the forefront, always talking about it, even if major foundations aren't, that gives me hope, because they're there. And I've seen enough of the shift over history, people are paying attention, they're not paying attention, then they're paying attention, whatever. I know, that folks, even if they retreat right now, and we are at a particular moment, in American culture, we'll be back. Right? Because people will always be doing the work. And so that gives me hope, that this is not the end of the story, because it always goes kind of up and down. And you always have to have the people there who are doing the work.

Katie 

Oh, I love that. Yeah, just even for me thinking about this question that I've been thinking a lot about the timeframe, you know, sometimes when you do this work, it feels so glacial, you know, like, you make one step forward, and then two steps back and, but you know, I think a lot about like, who, me as an individual, what, what's a timespan that I get to touch, you know, so I think about, like, the oldest person who's ever helped me, you know, my grandmother was born in the, you know, in the early 1900s. And, and hopefully, right, like my kids, when they like when they grow old, and they have their grandchildren, maybe it'll be the turn of the century, you know, so that's like a span of like 300 years from 1900 to like, maybe 2100 and that my everyday action so this goes back to this notion that small is all like the what I do today, the decisions and the small actions that I put into the world that it could have impact you know, many many years even after I'm gone and that gives me hope you know, that it took us hundreds of years to get to this place now. And that it will take that I might not see freedom and liberation for everyone in my lifetime but that it's something that I could help plant the seeds in my lifetime that where the fruits could be born this lifetime and beyond that gives me hope. And Lisa, to your point, as you were talking I was thinking friends don't let friends do this work alone you like we need each other actually, like you need each other in order to do transformation like transformation cannot happen in a vacuum. And so how do we support each other? You know, and I know for me as a consultant coach, and as a strategist as even being part of this collective with TGP has been so powerful because we need each other right to say, okay, how are we struggling with this? And how do you support this? And that, you know, chances are no matter what challenges you've been dealing with, somebody else has faced those same exact challenges. So how do we support each other? And so I think that's one thing that I really want to convey to the listeners is, if you're embarking on this work, you're not alone. You're absolutely not alone. And so how do you reach out to your peers, you know, to the broader community of people who have been doing this work who care about this work? Had we continue to support each other because this work is challenging. This is a you know, it is challenging on multiple levels and it's also really joyful. So Lisa, I loved your even your introduction about why you do this work it's because that's part of your you know, it's in your blood is the joy and, and the pleasure of being in true relationship with your community. So, so I'm so appreciative. And just wondering, before we go is there's any other thoughts that people want to offer in order for this conversation to feel complete? For today.

Abby 

You had asked about what advice we have for folks who are stuck. My that was one piece of advice that I've been thinking about was like, call someone reach out to your people you feeling stuck? I mean, this is what happens right? It's feeling stuck in equity work feeling stuck with your teenagers feeling stuck. Whenever you're feeling stuck, just reach out to your people. And they'll show you the way.

Lisa 

Right because either they've been through it right or they feel stuck too and you're like what I'm not alone.

Abby 

All right, that's good, too.

Lisa 

My community. We're right here.

Lalitha 

Katie, just want to say thank you to you for you know, pulling this all together and making this conversation happen. And then to Philanthropy Northwest for doing this season. And this podcast is a super important topic. And, you know, one of the ways in which you find your community, right people to call. Like, it's like the people that we're speaking on here, you know, there are people who are going through the journey. So hopefully that provides some feeling of comfort and community to others who are doing similar work. So thank you.

Katie 

Well, thank you. You are fabulous. Yay. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you, Lisa, too. It's I know it's late over there on the east coast. So thank you for bearing with us.

Nancy (Host) 

Thank you, Katie, Lisa, Abby, and Lalitha for your beautiful reflections. And a huge thank you to all of our listeners who joined us this season. A friendly reminder that you can find all our episode guides with resources, individual reflection questions, and group exercises on our website @thegivingpractice.org This podcast was written and produced by Aya Tsuruta and Emily Daman with audio engineering and editing support by Podfly and graphic design by Asha Hossain. A special thanks to our Philanthropy Northwest and Giving Practice teams for their thought partnership and the Ford Foundation for making this project possible. I'm Nancy Sanabria, and we'll see you next time.